They don't want us to know

[Angel of Ioren]

Also, my church will be announcing some new products in about an hour.

Praise Jobs.

 

[trainedobserver]

There's actually more proof for the existence of Santa Claus than any sort of god.
Also, my god got into a pretty awesome fight with the Hulk and he has a snazzy hammer. I win.

Hulk and Thor are a bad match. Thor has that "god" thing going for him. Hercules and Thor, now that is better throw down. Marvel Comics mixes all the Pantheons in a great soup. Lee and Kirby had Olympus and Asgard going at it in the 60s. Santa Claus can whip all their asses of course. How do you beat a guy that can be that fast, that sneaky, and still be 200 lbs overweight? Can't be done. And talk about gadgets. Where did Batman get all those toys (as the Joker asked)? Santa. Where does S.H.I.E.L.D. get their gadgets? Santa. How did Superman furnish the Fortress of Solitude? Santa. Where do you think Thor's hammer came from? Santa. And get this, he keeps the best stuff for himself.

 

[pixelsmith]

Hulk and Thor is a bad match. Thor has that "god" thing going for him. Hercules and Thor, now that is better throw down. Marvel Comics mixes all the Pantheons in a great soup. Lee and Kirby had Olympus and Asgard going at it in the 60s. Santa Claus can whip all their asses of course. How do you beat a guy that can be that fast, that sneaky, and still be 200 lbs overweight? Can't be done.

God Damn...that is funny as Hell.

 

[Randall]

There's actually more proof for the existence of Santa Claus than any sort of god.
Also, my god got into a pretty awesome fight with the Hulk and he has a snazzy hammer. I win.

Well ... that's not quite accurate because the phrase "any sort of God" opens up the discussion to several other types of gods, including deified humans who are as alive and measurable as anyone else, and just because they aren't a God to us doesn't mean they aren't to their devotees. We can even include inanimate objects like the Sun, which was ( and I think still is ) worshiped as a God by some sects. And then you can go into all the informal types of gods like "Rock 'n Roll Gods" and other idolized people. Ya ... "any sort of God" really opens up the possibilities there. On showdowns between mythological gods ... hmm ... I'll take a ringside seat at the next Juno vs Aphrodite mud wrestling tourney, wet bikini contest ... Goddesses Gone Wild ...

 

[trainedobserver]

Somebody should define the words "God" and "god" for the sake of the discussion.

 

[Randall]

Somebody should define the words "God" and "god" for the sake of the discussion.

The word "God" is a title used to identify the status of beings or things within a religious hierarchy. In monotheism God is at the top of the hierarchy. In polytheistic systems Gods hold various positions all of which are above those of mortals.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Well ... that's not quite accurate because the phrase "any sort of God" opens up the discussion to several other types of gods, including deified humans who are as alive and measurable as anyone else, and just because they aren't a God to us doesn't mean they aren't to their devotees. We can even include inanimate objects like the Sun, which was ( and I think still is ) worshiped as a God by some sects. And then you can go into all the informal types of gods like "Rock 'n Roll Gods" and other idolized people. Ya ... "any sort of God" really opens up the possibilities there. On showdowns between mythological gods ... hmm ... I'll take a ringside seat at the next Juno vs Aphrodite mud wrestling tourney, wet bikini contest ... Goddesses Gone Wild ...

I see your point. I meant mythological god.

 

[pixelsmith]

The Apple Gods are about to take the stage... I better start saving up for my tithe.
Apple's next-generation iPhone liveblog! -- Engadget

 

[trainedobserver]

The word "God" is a title used to identify the status of beings or things within a religious hierarchy. In monotheism God is at the top of the hierarchy. In polytheistic systems Gods hold various positions all of which are above those of mortals.

I am correct in saying these are not things that can be seen or touched, having no real physical presence in the world? There has never been a god cadaver or fossil uncovered for example, that would provide a real record of their existence. These are beings presumed to live in a nebulous alternate reality often called the spirit world. There again there is no tangible evidence that this alternate reality exists. Just like no one has ever brought back a alien plant from another planet, or a object from the flying saucer that abducted them, no one has ever brought back an object from any of the variations on the theme of the spirit world. Is safe to say that these are mythological beings, some of which are regarded as "real" by various people in various time periods?

 

[starise]

LOL Ufology, FWIW you won't find me knocking on any doors. I work with a great bunch of people many of who claim to not really have any kind of a belief in much of anything and I can honestly say that they are a great bunch of people regardless. I am not an exroverted personality and so I am not keen to be jumping in anyones face for any reason. If the interest isn't there it isn't there simple as that. I can't personally save any man nor would I ever think I could. Only God Himself can speak into a heart. I may be sometimes useful in attempting to point someone there, but I won't ever insist on putting my belief into anyones world that doesn't want it there.

One thing that I respect about many athiests is that thay have taken the time to investigate the hard issues and try to come to some kind of a solution that makes sense to them. The only difference between me and them is that I have come up with different answers based on my findings anwhat I have found reenforces rather that detracts from my faith.Far too many people just accept an answer as valid because someone that supposedly knows about it told them. It is healthy and commendable to question and investigate. The apostle Paul said that now he"sees though a glass darkly" but one day he will know even as he is known. This same thought has echoed though many saints minds over time. We are not like mushrooms in that we do know plenty but ultimate knowledge is something that isn't attained on this side.

Goggsmackay in Romans 4:3 the Bible says that Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. This is why in another post I mentioned that the Indians who worshipped the "Great Spirit" and believed Him believed in the same God and recieved His salvation IMHO. The OT saints believed in God and it was counted to them for righteousness.
So can a person be born into a Godless family, into a Godless society,never set foot in a church and STLL go to heaven? Absolutely. It is all about the heart and the motive both of which only God Himself sees.

Stoneheart and Pixelsmith....Yes I do believe the Bible. That contradiction in some texts has been found is a reality. This has been found documented, and understood to be clerical errors in the copy of manuscripts. Furthermore, said errors have been clarified by comparison to other copy of the same text. These errors have mostly not made it into the final copy. The ones that have made it into the final copy do in no way change the central meanings intended for the recipients. How can we be sure that what we read is accurate? Because comparitive texts from other locations and times agrees with it. In other words, the bad copy was identified. The KJV was written in kings english and is dated from that aspectWho says thee and thou anymore lol? So subsequent translations try to put it into more modern terms.Whether you agree with it or not is another matter althogether.

The issue of contradictions is debatable. If you read some of those Athiest books they make it look like contradictions are everywhere. Closer examinations reveal a much different picture IMHO. Do I believe the Bible? Yes absolutely. I also believe that it is a spiritual book and not a book of science and spiritually discerned. Some of it is to be read as concrete and some of it is to be read as symbolic. Some of it has happened already and some of it will happen in the future.

Hey I'm not anything super spiritual here so I hope I'm not viewed as coming off that way. I'm just an average guy who asked Christ to show me the way and He did. Nothing more,nothing less and nothing anyone else can't also do.

I have concluded that the spiritual world has at times been mistaken for the alien world. There are spiritual forces out there that are hell bent on deceiving you and me in any way they can. For those of you with scientific reasoning minds who object to this view on the grounds that none of it is proven in your mind or in your science, all I can say is I respect your right to your own opinion but I can't share it.Too much of what is happening in relation to the paranormal and UFOs is far too coincidentally aligned with what is going on in the spiritual realm.Why does the figure drawn by Alester Crowley that he communicated with look almost identical to a grey? Why do we have the Illuminati(or whatever you want to call the elites who run everything) in high govt. places? By all accounts we had a similar things happening in the German SS. The common denominator is Satanism,spiritualism, etc.

The "They" IMO are powerful evil beings who control powerful men who are trying to control us.The other "They" are those in govt. working on top secret projects and in many cases are working with the other" They". "They" have a plan.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

So Kim was banned? I missed that somehow? Guilty of over-quoting Roman history was he? How can you live with yourself Angelo? We don't have many members who can explain how the pyramids were built - though he was guilty of refusing to share this fantastic knowledge he claimed to have.
I used to enjoy the fight with Kim but it was difficult to continue any thread with him cos his religious beliefs came into pretty much any thread he looked at. He constantly mocked anyone who dare hold the merest idea of something truly paranormal despite him believing in the zombie from bethlehem. That said, It was enjoyable at the time.

Trained - I would be interested in discussing the idea of a creator/universal intelligence etc without resorting to man-made cults. I think it's been touched upon before a few times- that there might be a kind of intelligence in a realm to which we've no access.
All this Skinwalker Ranch stuff leads me to ponder any historical account/myth involving communication with a super-powerful intelligence that likes to toy with mankind. If there really is some intelligence at play in Utah then I don't see why it could not be worldwide and around for a very long time. It could explain a multitude of paranormal events surely? (and that's not to say it is the one and only answer, just that it may explain a lot.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

@Starise - It is good to see you give an account of yourself and your belief. I might not agree but I respect you defending what is yours.

 

[Randall]

I am correct in saying these are not things that can be seen or touched, having no real physical presence in the world? There has never been a god cadaver or fossil uncovered for example, that would provide a real record of their existence. These are beings presumed to live in a nebulous alternate reality often called the spirit world. There again there is no tangible evidence that this alternate reality exists. Just like no one has ever brought back a alien plant from another planet, or a object from the flying saucer that abducted them, no one has ever brought back an object from any of the variations on the theme of the spirit world. Is safe to say that these are mythological beings, some of which are regarded as "real" by various people in various time periods?

Well I don't think you would want to touch the Sun, but it is a thing and you can certainly see it. The Tiv people consider the Sun to be the son of the supreme being Awondo and the Moon is Awondo's daughter. As for people, Egyptian pharaohs were considered by their culture to be gods, and there are similar deifications of humans in other cultures. The custom of worshiping a pre-pubescent girl as the source of supreme power is an old Hindu-Buddhist tradition that still continues to this day in Nepal. She is given the title of Kumari Devi, who is worshiped on all religious occasions. These examples are all materially real.

 

[stonehart]

Well this thread was entertaining.

Yeah it has remained civil to some degree.. who would have thought

 

[trainedobserver]

Well I don't think you would want to touch the Sun, but it is a thing and you can certainly see it. The Tiv people consider the Sun to be the son of the supreme being Awondo and the Moon is Awondo's daughter. As for people, Egyptian pharaohs were considered by their culture to be gods, and there are similar deifications of humans in other cultures. The custom of worshiping a pre-pubescent girl as the source of supreme power is an old Hindu-Buddhist tradition that still continues to this day in Nepal. She is given the title of Kumari Devi, who is worshiped on all religious occasions. These examples are all materially real.

Then some of these things (gods) can be common real world objects such as the Sun or other human beings, believed by some to have special properties that the majority of humanity does not necessarily recognize. These are beliefs based in superstition and folklore and still classify as mythological and having no real basis in reality but belong solely to the realm of the human imagination. The Sun can be demonstrated to be a common star, the moon a large collection of rocks, and pre-pubescent girls less than the supreme power. These are indeed real material things but they are given unreal imaginary properties.

 

[Randall]

... There are spiritual forces out there that are hell bent on deceiving you and me in any way they can ...

So how do you know it's not you who has been deceived? If the deception was successful you certainly wouldn't know, and the last thing your deceiver would want is for you to discover your true situation. Questions that expose them would become off limits and only those things that reinforce the deception would be allowed. In order to secure your unquestioning obedience or faith you would be tricked into believing you can't really tell good from evil, ( even though your own book tells you that you can ). Look again, there is nothing in that passage that says your ability to tell good from evil is limited by your imperfection. That's something you just made up or cut and pasted from some other part of the book ... why? And even if it was true, how imperfect do you have to be before you can't tell that it's just plain evil to kill innocent children? Ask yourself that question ... feel it in your heart where you say your God speaks ... Is it good for anyone ( including any God ) to purposefully kill innocent children? What is the answer ... what does the God in your heart tell you? "Yes" or "No".

 

[Randall]

Then some of these things (gods) can be common real world objects such as the Sun or other human beings, believed by some to have special properties that the majority of humanity does not necessarily recognize. These are beliefs based in superstition and folklore and still classify as mythological and having no real basis in reality but belong solely to the realm of the human imagination. The Sun can be demonstrated to be a common star, the moon a large collection of rocks, and pre-pubescent girls less than the supreme power. These are indeed real material things but they are given unreal imaginary properties.

That doesn't mean these deified people or objects aren't real or that they aren't Gods to those who are their devotees. Therefore those Gods exist or have existed and are ( or were ) just as physically real as you or I or the Sun in the sky. What this reveals is that the concept of God is entirely dependent on belief and therefore the existence of God is wholly dependent on the existence of a believer. I find that on the two ends of the scale, the rabidly religious or skeptical, that this concept simply cannot be comprehended. It's as if there is some kind of brain block in place. Using your example of the Sun as a star, we have sufficient reason to believe that it existed long before humans evolved and deified it. Only after some pre-sapient creatures in Africa evolved their tiny little brains sufficiently to deify it did it suddenly become a God ( to them ). However they would claim the Sun existed long before man and therefore so did their God, and no amount of logic can convince them otherwise. Similarly the rabid skeptics cannot comprehend that because someone else has chosen to deify the Sun, that such a God therefore exists. It's truly quite bizarre just how far apart human paradigms can be.

 

[mike]

So how do you know it's not you who has been deceived? If the deception was successful you certainly wouldn't know, and the last thing your deceiver would want is for you to discover your true situation. Questions that expose them would become off limits and only those things that reinforce the deception would be allowed. In order to secure your unquestioning obedience or faith you would be tricked into believing you can't really tell good from evil, ( even though your own book tells you that you can ). Look again, there is nothing in that passage that says your ability to tell good from evil is limited by your imperfection. That's something you just made up or cut and pasted from some other part of the book ... why? And even if it was true, how imperfect do you have to be before you can't tell that it's just plain evil to kill innocent children? Ask yourself that question ... feel it in your heart where you say your God speaks ... Is it good for anyone ( including any God ) to purposefully kill innocent children? What is the answer ... what does the God in your heart tell you? "Yes" or "No".

Thats an excellent point and the one ive been trying to make.

I can quote example after example where both the biblical god and its supposed son express sentiments that by all modern standards are cruel and sadistic.

It even includes a passage that makes the very point

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil..." (Isa 5:20).

And yet despite the evidence, many can not see the sentiments expressed and activitys attributed to the leading character are vile by modern standards.

It would be ironic indeed if on rocking up to the pearly gates, they found god shaking his head, asking how is it that after giving you free will and the ability to decide whats right and wrong, you held up as dear a book that attributes the killing of babies and innocent animals as something i would endorse...........

 

[Randall]

It would be ironic indeed if on rocking up to the pearly gates, they found god shaking his head, asking how is it that after giving you free will and the ability to decide whats right and wrong, you held up as dear a book that attributes the killing of babies and innocent animals as something i would endorse.

I couldn't agree more ( well I might reserve the part about the innocent animals because I do love a good cheeseburger ), but let's also think of what the reverse implies. Suppose upon rocking up to the pearly gates God figures you did so well resisting the temptation to question all his evil actions that he grants you admittance. What kind of place is this? Apart from the decorating and all the self-centered rewards you were promised, it's a place filled with hypocrites who care more for their own salvation than the pleas of the helpless and innocent? A place where you are forced to watch all the suffering firsthand while God does nothing to intervene; a place where the guilt you feel because of your own helplessness and comparative comfort would be eternal. Even worse you'd be forced to endorse it through worship or be cast out. Without some serious changes at the top, for me this would be just another kind of Hell.

 

[Ancientsaturn]

No its not to hot in the kitchen.

a little info on me

A Degree in Philosophy and Religion.. I have had far worse heat in a dissertation lecture my friend.

I went on to an Honors Year and area of study at that point was Buddhism (The splitting of the Sangha and how other schools were formed and why)

I prefer to stay away from this sort of debate as it ends up going no place at all.

I am not going to convince you that you have no evidence for the existence of your god, and you are not getting any where near convincing me your god exists.

So what is the point?

None.

Thanks and night night.

You are new here so I am am going to extend my hand of friendship and hope to chat in other threads.

Till then peace and out.

Well if you have a degree in philosophy and religion then you could have participated. Look, no one is asking you to go in circles, I get burned out of topics myself. In fact, I gave up forums for the last 12 years! And I could well drop out again as this is pure recreation for me. So I have no issue with anyone moving on. But I don't think you understand my background. I have an extraordinary footing in the sciences. I also went to a liberal arts prep school for highschool and in my adult life have studied philosophy and literature extensively. I personally know many people with great credentials. For example, I have one-on-one meetings with individuals like Arthur Zajonc who wrote, "Catching the Light" (look up his bio on amazon). Arthur has had incredible dialogues with the Dali Lama. If you find these types of discussions "going in circles" then you have gotten very burned out indeed!

I could go on and on with connections to people with great credentials, like friends who are professors at Yale in literature and philosophy. Credentials don't impress me. In fact, most of the boring and dead discussions are from people who have the credentials. They already "know" everything. I recently studied Faust with Fred Amrine of the University of Michigan (adult Ed course). He is brilliant, but I got as much from the other class participants. I was the only scientist in the class, and they were quite surprised at my knowledge of philosophy.

Philosophy is just a fancy term for things being thought through. We all can think really well. What gets annoying is finding issues that have been solved in philosophy and someone who has not done their homework brings them up again and again. That is not the case here. In this case you have a topic that is not resolved.

Now with all respect, your post about "pixies" was not at all philosophical. I mean, where is this degree in philosophy? So if that was what you mean about "credentials" then I wish you well. But if you ever want to demonstrate your academic prowess by all means impress us! What is interesting to the individual is what is important, but credentials won't get you any extra credit.