They don't want us to know

[Muadib]

When anyone presents anything on a public forum, they open themselves up to be criticized or talked about, that's what happens on a forum. If you aren't comfortable with people questioning your beliefs, don't post about them, it's as simple as that. Some people on this forum are so ridiculously sensitive that they immediately assume a defensive position and whine about being attacked anytime someone addresses them or questions their ideas or beliefs. If there's anything that should be questioned constantly it's belief in magical deities or someone who thinks that they know all the answers when it comes to the paranormal, supernatural or spiritual realm. You may think you have the answer, but you don't, sorry. So if you can't handle questioning or criticism, keep it to yourself. Just like I would question and quite possibly ridicule anyone who claims to be in contact with ET, I'd question and quite possibly ridicule someone who claims to be in direct contact with whatever version of god they subscribe to.

 

[Randall]

When anyone presents anything on a public forum, they open themselves up to be criticized or talked about, that's what happens on a forum. If you aren't comfortable with people questioning your beliefs, don't post about them, it's as simple as that. Some people on this forum are so ridiculously sensitive that they immediately assume a defensive position and whine about being attacked anytime someone addresses them or questions their ideas or beliefs. If there's anything that should be questioned constantly it's belief in magical deities or someone who thinks that they know all the answers when it comes to the paranormal, supernatural or spiritual realm. You may think you have the answer, but you don't, sorry. So if you can't handle questioning or criticism, keep it to yourself. Just like I would question and quite possibly ridicule anyone who claims to be in contact with ET, I'd question and quite possibly ridicule someone who claims to be in direct contact with whatever version of god they subscribe to.

Your approach goes a bit too far in my opinion. I don't see ridicule as justified unless it's used as part of a comedy routine that reveals some irony within a wider issue. But in this forum, we're dealing with individuals and that makes ridicule a personal attack, which is in my view very unconstructive, serving more to polarize and cement opinions than open up the topic for free discussion and advancement.

 

[stonehart]

It's sad to see people try to make an argument against God. I'm not making any judgment on those who do, only that it saddens me. Also, this is why I prefer to stick to pretty much any other topic in the Paracast forum because it always comes to the same circular arguments.
I know I can speak to God as bluntly as I wish. He can handle anything I can throw at Him. If you have a beef with Him, by all means express that in any way you need to at least keeping an open mind to His existence and goodness. I'm posting this only in the hope of others here who feel the need to argue against God to possibly reevaluate there position, but of course that is totally out of my hands.

Job chapter 38

No offense meant in this reply Geo.

Those that have no belief in your God or any god for that matter, tend to look at it from the burden of proof angle.. you have none that can be held to show that the existence of said supernatural being can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

As such it becomes a matter of faith and faith is not evidence.

It's sad to see people try to make an argument against God

Don't be sad for me brother as I am well and truly glad to be rid of said superstition and like you I once held that I had a personal relationship through faith in my god.

But the deeper I studied to counter those evil atheists the closer I became to being one until one day I just could not keep up the farce.

Frankly I am happy that I did it.

it always comes to the same circular arguments

I agree that the God argument just becomes a game of circular logic and it also has the tendency to drive a wedge between those here that would otherwise get along just fine.

I miss Tyder and it was due to the religious arguments in part that caused a bit of a forum meltdown for him.

I'm posting this only in the hope of others here who feel the need to argue against God to possibly reevaluate there position

I did many times and I still come to the same conclusion every time that the belief in a god is a matter of faith and one that need not have evidence.
As such I have no faith in god as I require evidence to support it's existence and I have yet to find any that can confirm beyond a doubt that such a being exists.
The bible is not evidence, and personal testimony however compelling it can be made to sound is not either.

On top of that I am not about to play Pascals wager just to hedge my bets.

Frankly I have no need for imaginary friends and for me this is what it all amounts to, but having said that I respect others points of view to believe in whatever they darn well please.. hell you can worship pink and blue monkeys from Pluto for all I care as it only becomes a problem when the ideals of religion are imposed on a society wholesale.

As a side note, here is a question that has never be adequately answered by any Christian of Muslim I have met.

"What makes your God the One True God and Odin, Zeus, Osiris, and Mithra myths?"

Peace and don't panic

 

[Muadib]

Your approach goes a bit too far in my opinion. I don't see ridicule as justified unless it's used as part of a comedy routine that reveals some irony within a wider issue. But in this forum, we're dealing with individuals and that makes ridicule a personal attack, which is in my view very unconstructive, serving more to polarize and cement opinions than open up the topic for free discussion and advancement.

There is no free discussion and advancement when it comes to fanatics, which are pretty much the only people I'd go as far as to ridicule. It's their way or the highway, so I think that ridicule is perfectly acceptable when people adopt a non falsifiable position on things which they have no ability to prove.

 

[stonehart]

this is why I have really all but given up on this discussion topic when it comes up.

You know it more or less happens every time

 

[mike]

I dont get why anyone would subscribe to wanting a relationship with an entity that commands

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

I dont get that

Thats freaking insane.

Why would you want a relationship with such an entity ?

 

[mike]

this is why I have really all but given up on this discussion topic when it comes up.

You know it more or less happens every time

Reminds me of this one

 

[Randall]

There is no free discussion and advancement when it comes to fanatics, which are pretty much the only people I'd go as far as to ridicule. It's their way or the highway, so I think that ridicule is perfectly acceptable when people adopt a non falsifiable position on things which they have no ability to prove.

Even people with fixed positions can offer constructive information. I've had many interesting conversations with the same type of people you would go so far as to ridicule. In fact I invite them into my home. In my experience very few of them are bad people, and many of them are simply going through a religious phase as part of their search for something greater. I'm not saying that I don't enjoy an element of ridicule in comedy ( think George Carlin ). Personally, I draw the line between when it's appropriate or inappropriate when the line is crossed from genuine belief and a search for meaning to drawing TV ratings and donations to support some lavish hypocritical lifestyle, and especially where we see people scammed out of their life's savings ( hit those types all you want ).

Also: Returning to keeping the thread on topic. Any comments on this post.

 

[GeoShift]

Thanks for your frank and open input stonehart. Again, a circular argument as to proof. I would quote the Bible with Romans 1:20 *note on topic* (they don't want you to know this) and then it could be said that this doesn't help because one doesn't believe in the Bible and just because there's incredible evidence of intelligent design (ok, IMHO) doesn't mean everybody's going to believe that. We're flying through space on this planet at 66,000 mph or so if I remember correctly, in this incredible solar system and around galaxies and planets and moons and stars etc. Some would say this just happened by chance. Of course I would disagree with that. Same goes for the one true God position. Well, you can see we're this is going. I respect other people's views on these issues and we all have to find our own way, but for me it helps tremendously to trust in the one who put this incredible universe together, or stonehart, as you might call it, my imaginary friend

 

[Goggs Mackay]

No-one should need religion to be a good person. I try to be good to others cos I feel it is the right thing to do, not cos I am adding to my 'heaven mortgage'.

We can debate what may or may not be myth, truth, parable and all the rest for ever but taking the new testament as an example of the religion I was surrounded with and some of the family practising (they are still not proficient enough!) to this day - it comes down to one thing for me:

Was the historical figure called 'Jesus Christ' in any form, a literal and supernatural 'son of god' who performed miracles that are impossible and that he rose from the dead...blah blah.

He is either someone a cult was based around that grew and grew because the teachings struck a chord, or he was the son of god sent to save us. I think it the former and anyone who considers themselves a christian is just someone who has joined a very successful and long-lasting cult.

It would be unfair beyond belief for god to send his only son to Palestine and let countless people around the world not even get a chance to hear 'the word'. Also there are totally contradictory religions and they just cannot all be true at once. It is so obvious the Bible is a fallible creation of man.

The old testament is a joke. Any god who resembles the one in that book is someone best avoided.
People will swallow all sorts of shit to enable them to forget about questioning the universe and death and all the other big questions people seek answers for.
I don't mind saying that the god written about in the old testament is an asshole of the highest order - why anyone would even like such a being is beyond me. If there is a god I imagine in our comprehension he would be perfect and all knowing. I just don't get that from the bible. It screams 'I was written by men with zero contact with an actual god-being'.

 

[mike]

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

And unless you do this you are cursed

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

I'm sorry what part of this speaks to you of a kind and loving god ? where does the word "goodness" come into play here ?

 

[Randall]

Thanks for your frank and open input stonehart. Again, a circular argument as to proof. I would quote the Bible with Romans 1:20 *note on topic* (they don't want you to know this) and then it could be said that this doesn't help because one doesn't believe in the Bible and just because there's incredible evidence of intelligent design (ok, IMHO) doesn't mean everybody's going to believe that. We're flying through space on this planet at 66,000 mph or so if I remember correctly, in this incredible solar system and around galaxies and planets and moons and stars etc. Some would say this just happened by chance. Of course I would disagree with that. Same goes for the one true God position. Well, you can see we're this is going. I respect other people's views on these issues and we all have to find our own way, but for me it helps tremendously to trust in the one who put this incredible universe together, or stonehart, as you might call it, my imaginary friend

I looked up Romans 1:20 and there are some serious problems there when you put it in context of the surrounding text, not the least of which is God’s wrath on unrighteousness, which is what I presume you might be referencing with respect to the topic of this thread. Earlier I mentioned the Tower of Babel myth as a prime example of keeping us from acquiring knowledge. I'll add another that goes right back to the very beginning in Genesis:

​

"So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened ... "​

​

So what does this entity ( God ) do after Adam and Eve's eyes are opened? Punishes them with a long slow death by toil. For what? Eating a fruit that gave them knowledge. How is that in any way fair? Seems a little harsh to me. So all the way back to the dawn of biblical creation humans have been tempted with knowledge but always refused direct access to it. These days our alien visitors are still doing the same thing; taunting us with displays of fantastic technology that we cannot get our hands on. Does anyone else have any other examples of God denying us or preventing us from acquiring knowledge?

 

[mike]

Now hang on, if i get dropped onto a mountain by helicopter in uganda to study gorilla's am i "taunting" them with the technology or simply using it to get a job done ?

 

[mike]

Does the bible reference UFO sightings ? i think so
But our own technology today is more advanced than the bronze age technology of the bible's authors
Thus we have a better basis with with to frame our observations, where they saw celestial beings and angels, we see structured craft and vehicles.

We are framing our descriptions from a broader palette of knowledge

This makes them more accurate imo

When our technology is at parity with their technology, we will have the lexicon to label them properly

 

[Muadib]

Watch this presentation on intelligent design and then tell me that the universe was designed intelligently.

You're seriously lying to yourself if you think the universe was intelligently designed, the evidence of chance and randomness is simply to prevalent to be ignored.

 

[mike]

Watch this presentation on intelligent design and then tell me that the universe was designed intelligently.

You're seriously lying to yourself if you think the universe was intelligently designed, the evidence of chance and randomness is simply to prevalent to be ignored.

Did creation need a creator?
British physicist and mathematician Stephen Hawking says no, arguing in his new book that there need not be a God behind the creation of the universe.

Stephen Hawking: God NOT Needed For Creation

 

[Randall]

You're seriously lying to yourself if you think the universe was intelligently designed, the evidence of chance and randomness is simply to prevalent to be ignored.

In the context of religious texts I would agree, however I don't see any problem with the idea of intelligent design if you allow for the possibility that it may have been designed to evolve from get-go. Randomness can either be encoded or simply exist as a byproduct of the limitations of the process by which the construct is generated, and so far, I've seen no better explanation for the existence of our universe. I also recognize that the absence of a better explanation doesn't mean that the best one available is the right one. What this has to do with the thread's topic I don't know. Does anyone else have any other examples of God denying us or preventing us from acquiring knowledge?

 

[Randall]

Now hang on, if i get dropped onto a mountain by helicopter in uganda to study gorilla's am i "taunting" them with the technology or simply using it to get a job done ?

The biblical mythology is quite specific about the tree of knowledge and the tree of life being placed conspicuously in the garden where it became a temptation. So your analogy would need to include as part of getting your "job done", something that the gorillas would be tempted by being placed right in the middle of their troop that is withdrawn when they become interested in it. Why do that if you weren't going to study their behavior with respect to it?

 

[stonehart]

there's incredible evidence of intelligent design

Really?
No there is not, intelligent design is just another way to say god did it and it explains nothing what so ever at all period.
Evolutionary science is a very advanced area of scientific inquiry these days and has gone a long way in showing how the tree of life has branched in the past 3 or 4 billion years.
However the theory of evolution neither discounts nor requires a god as it is simply an are of study that shows the evolution of spices on this planet.

The scientific (non-religious) theory for the formation of the universe although incomplete is a far cry again from god did it for if you use the bible or the tenants applied by intelligent design it amounts to the same thing.

God did it is not an answer.

I have never been a great word smith so I will let Carl Sagan explain this better than I can.

Please take the time to watch it.

But putting all of that aside try to argue without the use of the bible or quoting it at all...... I would think you will find that very hard to do indeed.
But the bible in and of itself has evolved .. Ironic is it not.

 

[Randall]

... I have never been a great word smith so I will let Carl Sagan explain this better than I can. Please take the time to watch it ...

Good ole' Carl Sagan. His spacey visuals and music along with his narration style are captivating. You can hardly stop watching him and by the time you're into it for 5 minutes you're completely hypnotized. He could tell me the universe was made out of a vast collection of ice cream cones evolved from billions of flakes of breakfast cereal and I'd be nodding my head in complete agreement. So has this thread gone totally off the rails now ( rhetorical )?