They don't want us to know

[Randall]

I think that is the best story I have ever read on the Paracast Forum.

Sounds like something you'd see on a Simpson's episode. I think that if what I experienced was any kind of hoax, it was much more complex than a Boy Scout prank.

 

[trainedobserver]

Sounds like something you'd see on a Simpson's episode. I think that if what I experienced was any kind of hoax, it was much more complex than a Boy Scout prank.

I am not doubting that my friend. You experience is not that uncommon and it isn't that hard for me to accept as having occurred. The question is one of origins and purposes. I think the most likely origin of these things is the human organism itself and not some outside agency or intelligence.

 

[Ezechiel]

but the reply was, to paraphrase as closely as I can, "You don't need to follow any religion. Follow that which is good wherever you may find it.

What is perceived as 'good' varies for each individual.. Thus the growing trenches between conservative and liberal values. The insane acts of extremists and fundamentalists. LOL this voice was saying nothing less than : go play on the highway )

For some, a safe zone on this planet is a secular one with civil rules. Others need a religious shell with some kind of supreme being imposing its version of morality. A world where anyone that doesn't fit in the model goes to hell (remember the American army pastor distributing bibles in Afghanistan ?)

 

[Randall]

I am not doubting that my friend. You experience is not that uncommon and it isn't that hard for me to accept as having occurred. The question is one of origins and purposes. I think the most likely origin of these things is the human organism itself and not some outside agency or intelligence.

I tend to agree, but it didn't seem that way at the time, and those who I have talked to tend to think that such things don't just spontaneously happen without some influence, typically some kind of hallucinogenic, but this was nothing like that. Maybe it was some kind of magnetic anomaly or maybe it was alien intervention. As for the experience being common. I've talked to a lot people over the years from theologians to psychologists and I've only run across one other account of something that is very similar. All the other modern religious experiences I've heard involve some sort of synchronicity, or a premonition, or luck, or a seemingly positive response to a prayer, but no direct intervention on this scale. If you have any references to other similar accounts that don't use some shamanic hallucinogenic, sensory deprivation, hypnotic, or other means to induce the experience in a normal healthy human being, I'd appreciate knowing about them.

 

[Randall]

What is perceived as 'good' varies for each individual.. Thus the growing trenches between conservative and liberal values. The insane acts of extremists and fundamentalists. LOL this voice was saying nothing less than : go play on the highway ). For some, a safe zone on this planet is a secular one with civil rules. Others need a religious shell with some kind of supreme being imposing its version of morality. A world where anyone that doesn't fit in the model goes to hell (remember the American army pastor distributing bibles in Afghanistan ?)

At first what you say seems to be true, but on closer inspection it becomes a dichotomy, both complex and simple. Because the entity ( if that's what it was ), didn't impose any particular agenda or interpretation of its own on what goodness was supposed to mean, it set me on a path that I still contemplate and apply today. I've looked at the issue from cultural, biological, philosophical, political, religious and psychological perspectives, and while it is true that there are various interpretations of goodness, there is one aspect of goodness that is very easy to identify with because it's hardwired into a few species ( including humans ), and that is the concept of fairness. This was shown recently on a documentary narrated by Dr. David Suzuki's in experiments done with monkeys ( related article here ).

The conclusion is that apart from the other issues brought into play by our higher brain functions, there is an almost instinctive sense of fairness built into normal brains. Most of the other concepts you mention are somewhat different than the concept of fairness in that they are more closely associated with respect for the law ( legal, political, religious or whatever ) which is something entirely different. Respect for the law and understanding justice are two separate concepts in a hierarchy of moral ethics ( see Kohlberg ). So without droning on too long here, we have both an innate ( simple ) and intellectual ( complex ) capacity for identifying goodness. If we apply rational thinking to the concept of moral ethics, we can arrive at a fairly universal concept of goodness, but as you point out, not everyone really understands this, and they use their own self-serving interpretations of goodness to prop up their personal agendas that are often associated more with power and control than what is fair and morally justifiable. I think we would probably agree that such people are not so good, no matter what they might think of themselves.

 

[trainedobserver]

P It seemed to me that logically the world could do with fewer humans and that to do my part I'd crawl off into a glacier and just disappear. I was quite happy with the decision and it was on this day that the incident happened. I literally said out loud in a voice to the sky, I don't know if there is a God but I'd just like to say hello because if you're there I'm coming to meet you!" ... It permeated everything and it was accompanied by the most intense feeling of pure love that I've ever experienced. It simply said, "Hello".

I was really moved by your recounting of that experience. Thank you so much for sharing it. I envy your experience again. However, I think the clue as to what was talking to you is in the story. The human mind is a complex and very funky thing. I think it is more likely that your subconsciousness mind reached out to you at that moment in an attempt to save your life rather than a god-like being of some kind. The mind is truly like an ice-berg with most the business out of sight until ...

 

[trainedobserver]

If you have any references to other similar accounts that don't use some shamanic hallucinogenic, sensory deprivation, hypnotic, or other means to induce the experience in a normal healthy human being, I'd appreciate knowing about them.

Pick up almost any religious text and you will find them.

 

[Randall]

I was really moved by your recounting of that experience. Thank you so much for sharing it. I envy your experience again. However, I think the clue as to what was talking to you is in the story. The human mind is a complex and very funky thing. I think it is more likely that your subconsciousness mind reached out to you at that moment in an attempt to save your life rather than a god-like being of some kind. The mind is truly like an ice-berg with most the business out of sight until ...

Thank you for being so diplomatic. This is the first really public place I've put all this down. I know how it sounds ( and I'm pretty open minded ), so I fully expected to be labeled cukoo. But I have also never totally dismissed the idea you suggest. Although it seemed perfectly real to me, a third party might not have experienced anything. So trust me, I've tried to figure it out rationally. I don't like the idea of my brain just suddenly going off into woo woo land. It's just that after all the reflection I've done, I don't thinks it's the right answer. To reiterate, I have tried to find historical evidence of spontaneous hallucinations in normal unimpaired healthy people without any success. I voluntarily sought out a psychologist who was interested in theology and worked at the university I attended. But he said he'd never heard of any such cases and that I seemed perfectly normal to him. I also haven't been able to find any scientifically proven explanation in over 30 years since then. The closest thing is Persinger's work with a magnetic helmet that when placed on an individuals head and manipulated just the right way produces hallucinations so real the subject cannot tell the difference between it and reality. He's theorized that geological movement might produce similar electromagnetic forces capable of inducing a natural spontaneous hallucination, and offers that up as an explanation for some UFO sightings and abductions.

Although there is no direct evidence in support of Persinger's theory, the area where this happened is situated on the Omineca Tectonic Belt and the underlying geological structure seems suitable for the production and sudden release of EM energy. However one would think that such a powerful release would not have gone unnoticed by other people in the area, and there was no seismic activity accompanying the event that I could feel. Lastly, as the one who experienced it, I've had significant time to reflect on it from all angles, and when I try to tell myself it didn't really happen, it feels as though I'd be lying to myself if I denied it. I know this last part isn't scientific, but we know in our own minds when we're lying to ourselves and my mind tells me the experience was real ( not something it just made up ). So coupled with the absence of medical, psychological and scientific support for spontaneous natural hallucinations in normal healthy people, the scales are tipped in favor of some external force or stimuli. If I were to pick anything, it would be Persinger's EM field theory. The problem with that ( assuming it actually happens ) is that the timing was so perfectly synchronous with what I was thinking that an EM busrt at that precise moment to produce exactly the right effect, would in and of itself be an incredible bit of synchronicity. The next closest thing is some kind of alien intervention, in which case I must have been being monitored. I've seen UFOs and experienced other paranormal phenomena, and I think it is entirely possible that they are all related ( being discussed here ).

 

[mike]

I can testify the brain does some very odd things when confronted with death.
I quite literally had my life flash before my eyes, hanging off a cliff face certain death imminent.
Memories long forgotton , flashed in front of me. from being spoon fed and crawling to the day in question and everything in between.
That i survived to tell the tale, was sheer luck.
And required a leap of faith so to speak, one i was reluctant to make, but it was that with a high chance of missing and falling, or falling anyway

 

[Randall]

I can testify the brain does some very odd things when confronted with death.
I quite literally had my life flash before my eyes, hanging off a cliff face certain death imminent.
Memories long forgotton , flashed in front of me. from being spoon fed and crawling to the day in question and everything in between.
That i survived to tell the tale, was sheer luck.
And required a leap of faith so to speak, one i was reluctant to make, but it was that with a high chance of missing and falling, or falling anyway

Thanks for sharing that. Strange things that science doesn't know how to fully explain do tend to happen in life or death situations. I guess we've really gone way off topic now though. I'll try to bring it back part way by suggesting that if what I experienced was some sort of alien intervention, then like virtually all encounters, I wasn't given any unique knowledge or abilities to prove it happened. If they wanted us to know they exist, I think they would be able to impart some specialized knowledge or ability that could be used to confirm their existence to others, or simply show themselves to a wider audience. Why these isolated paranormal displays? Why the cat and mouse games with aircraft? Why bother revealing themselves at all? They may not want us to know everything, but they do seem to want us know just enough to start asking questions.

 

[Ezechiel]

At first what you say seems to be true, but on closer inspection it becomes a dichotomy, both complex and simple. Because the entity ( if that's what it was ), didn't impose any particular agenda or interpretation of its own on what goodness was supposed to mean, it set me on a path that I still contemplate and apply today. I've looked at the issue from cultural, biological, philosophical, political, religious and psychological perspectives, and while it is true that there are various interpretations of goodness, there is one aspect of goodness that is very easy to identify with because it's hardwired into a few species ( including humans ), and that is the concept of fairness. This was shown recently on a documentary narrated by Dr. David Suzuki's in experiments done with monkeys ( related article here ).

The conclusion is that apart from the other issues brought into play by our higher brain functions, there is an almost instinctive sense of fairness built into normal brains. Most of the other concepts you mention are somewhat different than the concept of fairness in that they are more closely associated with respect for the law ( legal, political, religious or whatever ) which is something entirely different. Respect for the law and understanding justice are two separate concepts in a hierarchy of understanding moral ethics ( see Kohlberg ). So without droning on too long here, we have both an innate ( simple ) and intellectual ( complex ) capacity for identifying goodness. If we apply rational thinking to the concept of moral ethics, we can arrive at a fairly universal concept of goodness, but as you point out, not everyone really understands this, and they use their own self-serving interpretations of goodness to prop up their personal agendas that are often associated more with power and control than what is fair and morally justifiable. I think we would probably agree that such people are not so good, no matter what they might think of themselves.

One point that I am clumsily trying to make is that the concept of a god micro-managing an individual or a society is, for lack of a better word, 'insane'.

Another point is that once a group decides it is the chosen one and the official reference for definitions of what is moral (good/bad) or not with the official stamp of god you end up with everything you can observe today

 

[Randall]

One point that I am clumsily trying to make is that the concept of a god micro-managing an individual or a society is, for lack of a better word, 'insane'. Another point is that once a group decides it is the chosen one and the official reference for definitions of what is moral (good/bad) or not with the official stamp of god you end up with everything you can observe today

On the surface what you are saying makes perfect sense and I don't buy into any of those paradigms you mention personally. But let's consider for a moment the idea of micromanaging people and societies. We humans are doing a pretty good job of that ourselves, especially large corporations where virtually every aspect of an employee's daily life ( work life ) is micromanaged. Then we kick it up a notch to the government, which is trying to do the same thing on a societal scale ( think of the Big Bro Watching thread ). Then let's kick it up one more notch just for the fun of it. We have these alien craft flying around for what purpose? Their presence seems to date back to antiquity and our mythology lands them smack-dab in the middle of meddling in human affairs, if not having a hand in creation itself. We also have multi-generation abductees and alleged contactees and there is a distinct leaning in their behavior to steer human development on a genetic, technological and sociological scale. People who are religious interpret this alien intervention as God's plan. Others interpret it as pure myth. I'm somewhere in between. I have no doubt that UFOs are real and that they have an agenda of their own to fulfill. Have you read Bramley's book The Gods of Eden? It will make you think twice before dismissing the idea that humanity isn't being managed.

 

[starise]

I am amazed by the outright challenge to the Bible. I feel as if a few here are attempting to draw me into some kind of a confrontation of the authenticity of the Bible. On the one hand I see questioning as a healthy thing OTOH I see others who seem to want to fight over it.

The points that Mike has raised are legitimate and deserve inspection. The list on closer inspection will reveal that once again much of what was quoted is taken out of context. God has done different things at different times in different ways. Context is everything and in the case of a taking short "splice" from the bigger picture you can make the Bible say a lot of different things in a lot of different ways....and a lot of people have used that for their own advantage.

I will say that whoever came up with those seemingly contradictory statements was pretty creative and would have made a great reporter for the New York Times. Along similar lines there are recognized typos in some of the copies of the Bible. Not in the actual Bible though.This is common knowledge and has been clarified with comparisons of the original texts and other accurate copies.

There is a reference in the Bible that states that God wasn't in the wind, He wasn't in the fire, but came in a "still small voice". For reasons unkown He chooses to confound the wise with the foolish. Why would you send Jesus into the surroundings of Bethlehem when He could have been born in a much better place? Why would you use a guy like Moses who didn't really want the job? Why would you send your son into lowly human form instead of appearing in the clouds? The Bible says that in order to come to God we must come to Him as a little child. It also says that the path to distruction is wide but the true path is narrow implying that most won't see it or desire to see it. Coming to God as a little child implies that we come to Him without always needing a rationalization. This is not to say we don't think soundly or approach Him without any deep thought.Coming to God like the boss doesn't fly.

I do think that a lot of the ancient people came to God without any Bible at all. The "Great Spirit" that many of the indians worshiped is a good example of that. God hated religion which is one reason why I explicitly stated that I am not "religious" in another post. FWIW I also hate religion. Religion is mans excuse to see himself in a better light apart from Gods way.

This isn't intended to be ay kind of a cop out at all but I am usually on a break at work and my time is extremely limited here. I do feel challenged on my belief in the Bible I can back it up but I REALLY am limited in my time.

My "experience" wasn't anything earth shattering. Nothing
"pentacostal" happened. It was merely me saying that I am in full agreement to comply with Gods plan for me. I agreed with His evaluation of mankind and myself personally. I accepted His gift in the form of Jesus and He has since complied with his end of the bargain numerous times and in ways I can only begin to imagine.God met me on my level as He will with anyone else who is willing.

Even a die hard skeptic who looks across religions and religious history can't deny that at least the adherants to these belief structures almost always acknowledged spiritual beings in their beliefs. The evidence of spiritual beings in satanism isn't denied by satanists. To outright deny the existence or the possiblity of the existence of these beings as a skeptic is to miss a huge possibility in ufology. I think ufology is a lot of things, basically a catagorization from multiple sources. Identification being the key thing and very elusive. A lot of the spiritual paranormal happenings are directly correlated with similar things in ufology. In some cases when the "aliens" showed up and the help of Jesus Christ was called on the so called aliens all went away. How do the aliens know who Jesus is??

I am in no way saying that all of the sightings and happenings observed and reported are related to a spiritual aspect. Many of them are not. Many of the things seen are obviously hoaxes. A lot of the Mexican sightings are highly questionable. I know a balloon when I see one lol.The government is always involved in secrets, There could really be an ET who knows? Lots of possibilities, lots of perceptions. The spiritual aspect of some of these sightings in my mind is a certainty. The other possibilities are in addition to that. I make sure I don't box something into the spiritual category even if it appears to look like it might fit there. OTOH sometimes the explanation works for that theory and fits it well.

 

[trainedobserver]

Let's get real for a minute.

When someone says they aren't religious, that they in fact hate "religion" and then make pronouncements about knowing the identity of the one true god and its requirements using religious texts as their "proof", it really points to a major disconnect in their thinking. One I am very familiar with.

Many self-styled theists as well as those ingrained in some particular sect's dogma have picked up the unrealistic and completely untrue notion that they have a personal relationship with a figure from those religious texts. I used to repeat the same lie when I was living the fantasy myself because I heard that nonsense from the pulpit. That little fact became an increasingly sore point with me as the bald-faced hypocrisy of the practice became more and more evident over the years. I was a practicing Christian for over 30 years, teaching the Bible, "winning souls to Christ", giving my testimony at every opportunity, etc., etc., etc. ad nauseam. I had to eventually admit to myself that I could not justify my religious beliefs and left the whole mess. My emotional, mental, and personal life starting getting better immediately when I eliminated that bit of cognitive dissidence from my life. Your mileage dear reader, may vary.

I have met many highly religious people who either didn't have the intellectual capacity or the honesty to admit they were indeed religious to a fault and that the only "relationship" they had was with a book that served as a surrogate or proxy for their "living god" who only existed in their imaginations.

Anyone who is prothletising for Jesus on a forum while saying they aren't religious is obviously lying to themselves and their readers. Cults and cultists often use "special language" and attempt to change the meanings of words redefining them to meet their agendas. It is a form of mental judo where the logical mind is derailed by contradicting information and incongruent acts. It is also bullshit.

re·li·gion (from dictionary.com)

   [ri-lij-uhn]
noun

1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.​

2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.​

3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.​

4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.​

5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.​

 

[mike]

The out of context answer doesnt always work though

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34
Jesus says, “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17

Noah is told to make an ark that is 450 feet long (Genesis 6:14-15). The largest wooden ships ever built were just over 300 feet, and they required diagonal iron strapping for support. Even so, they leaked so badly that they had to be pumped constantly. Are we to believe that Noah, with no shipbuilding knowledge and no shipbuilding tradition to rely upon, was able to construct a wooden ship that was longer than any that has been built since?
16) Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of “every thing that creepeth upon the earth” (Genesis 7:8). Now this must have taken some time, along with expert knowledge of taxonomy, genetics, biogeography, and anatomy. How did Noah manage to collect the endemic species from the New World, Australia, Polynesia, and other remote regions entirely unknown to him? How, once he found them, did he transport them back to his Near Eastern home? How could he tell the male and female beetles (there are more than 500,000 species) apart? How did he know how to care for these new and unfamiliar animals? How did he find the space on the ark? How did he manage to find and care for the hundreds of thousands of parasitic species or the hundreds of thousands of plant species? (Plants are ignored in the Genesis account, but the animals wouldn’t last long if the plants died in the flood.) No, wait, don’t tell me, a miracle happened, millions of them.
17) All of the animals boarded the ark “in the selfsame day” (Genesis 7:13-14). Since there were several million species involved, they must have boarded at a rate of at least 100 per second. How did poor Noah and his family make sure that the correct number of each species entered through the door and then get them all settled into their proper living quarters so efficiently? I wish the airline companies could do as well!
18) The flood covered the highest mountain tops (Mount Everest?) with fifteen cubits to spare (Genesis 7:20). Where did all the water come from? Where did it all go? Why is there no evidence of such a massive flood in the geological record?
19) When the animals left the ark (Genesis 8:19), what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct. And how did the New World primates or the Australian marsupials find there way back after the flood subsided?
20) Noah kills the “clean beasts” and burns their dead bodies for God (Genesis 8:20). According to Genesis 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all “clean” animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. So why is it that we still have “clean” animals?
21) God is filled with remorse for having drowned his creatures in the flood. He even puts the rainbow in the sky so that whenever the animals see it they will remember God’s promise not to do it again (Genesis 9:13). But rainbows are caused by the nature of light, the refractive index of water, and the shape of raindrops. There were rainbows billions of years before humans existed.
22) “The whole earth was of one language” (Genesis 11:1). But this could not be true, since by this time (around 2400 BCE) there were already many languages, each unintelligible to the others.

One of my favourites

Jacob displays his (and God’s) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked baby goats (Genesis 30:37). The author of Genesis (God?) believed that genetic characteristics of the offspring are determined by what the parents see at the moment of conception. This is a laughable belief. Ask any animal husbandrist

Just a few examples that make a case this text is the ignorant words of bronze age humans, and not the perfect word of god.

 

[mike]

Murder in the bible

The act of murder is rampant in the Bible. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God's irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.

The following passages are a very small percentage of the total passages approving of murder in the Bible. They are divided here into three parts: 1) Capital Punishment Crimes, 2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons, 3) Murdering Children, and 4) Miscellaneous Murders. This list is long, but it barely scratches the surface of all the murders approved of in the Bible.

Murder in the Bible

Now the usual dodge is Oh, thats all Old Testiment stuff, Jesus brought new rules which overwrite these ones

Ahhhhh, no thats simply not true

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18).

The OT law will remain unchanged, not the smallest letter, the least stroke of a pen, until heaven and earth disappear......

So
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Still in effect

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)


Burned to death, not a pretty way to go

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)


Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

We are talking about a book chock a block full of disgusting behavior, behaviour commanded by god, full of contradictions up the wazzoo, and out right scientific impossibilitys, like noahs ark.

For me its obviously nothing more than the writings of bronze age humans.
Filled with superstition and violence, no doubt in and of itself an accurate reflection of the times it was written in

 

[stonehart]

enough said.

I did promise to stay out of the religious threads but I could not resist that

 

[GeoShift]

It's sad to see people try to make an argument against God. I'm not making any judgment on those who do, only that it saddens me. Also, this is why I prefer to stick to pretty much any other topic in the Paracast forum because it always comes to the same circular arguments.
I know I can speak to God as bluntly as I wish. He can handle anything I can throw at Him. If you have a beef with Him, by all means express that in any way you need to at least keeping an open mind to His existence and goodness. I'm posting this only in the hope of others here who feel the need to argue against God to possibly reevaluate there position, but of course that is totally out of my hands.

Job chapter 38

 

[pixelsmith]

Murder in the bible



Murder in the Bible

Now the usual dodge is Oh, thats all Old Testiment stuff, Jesus brought new rules which overwrite these ones

Ahhhhh, no thats simply not true

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18).

The OT law will remain unchanged, not the smallest letter, the least stroke of a pen, until heaven and earth disappear......

So
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Still in effect

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)


Burned to death, not a pretty way to go

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)


Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

We are talking about a book chock a block full of disgusting behavior, behaviour commanded by god, full of contradictions up the wazzoo, and out right scientific impossibilitys, like noahs ark.

For me its obviously nothing more than the writings of bronze age humans.
Filled with superstition and violence, no doubt in and of itself an accurate reflection of the times it was written in

God is responsible for over 3 million deaths in the bible. the Devil is responsible for the deaths of between 8 and 12 people depending on the version of bible you have.

 

[Randall]

I am amazed by the outright challenge to the Bible. I feel as if a few here are attempting to draw me into some kind of a confrontation of the authenticity of the Bible. On the one hand I see questioning as a healthy thing OTOH I see others who seem to want to fight over it. The points that Mike has raised are legitimate and deserve inspection ...

Starise, there is no nefarious attempt ( at least by me ) to "draw you into a confrontation". I've only attempted to open up a window for you to another point of view. I've also opened myself up to extreme criticism by sharing my own experience in an attempt to make you feel less isolated. If you have been following this conversation, surely you must see that I have every reason to believe in God based on my own personal experience, and I did indeed believe in God for some time afterward. But as you can see, the people here have not attacked me. We have been able to have an entirely reasonable discussion about it.

Also just a reminder ( for everyone ) that this isn't a "Let's Debate the Bible" thread. If we are to use examples from the Bible, how about relating it to the thread topic "They Don't Want Us to Know". For example in myth of the Tower of Babel,

​

God came down to see what they did and said: "They are one people and have one language, and nothing will be withholden from them which they purpose to do." So God said, "Come, let us go down and confound their speech." And so God scattered them upon the face of the Earth, and confused their languages, and they left off building the city, which was called Babel "because God there confounded the language of all the Earth" (Genesis 11:5–8).​

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So here we have an example of God ( some kind of alien entity ) purposefully intervening in a human engineering project that showed promise in advancing their culture, by "confounding their speech" ( disrupting communications ) and fragmenting their culture. Clearly this was done because God ( some alien entity ) didn't want them to know whatever it was they might discover.