Thoughts on conscience, entities, ufos plus AYAHUASCA

[technomage]

My wife and I took a large dose of LSD once and it was a great experience, once I got past the missing time part. I was cracking up with my friend much of the time and my wife was in awe of every color, sound and anything she saw, starting with jello. Everything was amazing to her. We started the experience off by crying after watching 5 minutes of the Lion King (it took me 10 minutes to get the DVD in the player).

 

[Ufocurious]

Hi ufocurious.

I have been researching aya as much as I can, and have other plant allies. I am very interested in your work down there. I had a chance to do aya here in the states and I'm waiting for the setting to be right. Some on these forums are compelled to poop in the soup, so to say, and I recommend not posting your spiritual stuff here. It will not be understood by the loudest of opinions in this forum. Chris OB is one exception, and Micah Hanks if he hangs out here. There are many scared folks who will... Oh wait they already posted.

Love and light,

Aya is really something out of ordinary. It is not for the people that fear it, neither for the ones who disrespect it. By the latter I mean people that add other plants or take DMT or 5-MeO-DMT with it. As far as my tiny experience go it is not dangerous at all because it does not cloud judgement.

I am also doing a lot of research. I want to read Benny Shannon books. I think he is the most grounded researcher I have seen. I like his insights.

One of the thoughts that have come to my mind is that Ayahuasca should be taken with the help of a therapist in order to understand whatever they are learning from Mother Aya, or their higher self. We, western people, should not go after the "real" experience with shamans. Shamans are the psychologists of their ethnie, and probably not the best for us. Neither one should do it with religious people, unless if they share the same beliefs. The experiences can be to powerful, and I am not sure if its a good idea to leave people alone to internalize it. But those are my thoughts. The thoughts of a neophyte. Therefore probably very mistaken.

I would love to hear of your experience. You can start a private conversation. I did not understand what you mean by waiting the setting to be right. Do you mean the right people to do with? That may never come. I think one can shield oneself from the stuff they don't like. I never tried Ayahuasca before because I do not share Santo Daime beliefs. However I am planning to do one of their rituals as part of my (re)search.

 

[Ufocurious]

My wife and I took a large dose of LSD once and it was a great experience, once I got past the missing time part. I was cracking up with my friend much of the time and my wife was in awe of every color, sound and anything she saw, starting with jello. Everything was amazing to her. We started the experience off by crying after watching 5 minutes of the Lion King (it took me 10 minutes to get the DVD in the player).

I have heard that real LSD is hard to find these days. But it seems you guys got high and happy. I didn't know LSD impairs locomotor actions such as putting a DVD on. Looks like you really did a huge dose. Did you guys have the metallic taste in your mouths? Was it hard to come back to reality? I am curious, because I no nothing about it.

 

[Tyger]

@Ufocurious A well-stated caution in Vimana's post quoted below, I regret to say, because I was hopeful to hear your experiences. If you undertake a private conversation I think you can have up to 5 posters on a conversation - or maybe there is no limit. Just an idea. I do hope you post here. though.

Hi ufocurious.

I have been researching aya as much as I can, and have other plant allies. I am very interested in your work down there. I had a chance to do aya here in the states and I'm waiting for the setting to be right. Some on these forums are compelled to poop in the soup, so to say, and I recommend not posting your spiritual stuff here. It will not be understood by the loudest of opinions in this forum. Chris OB is one exception, and Micah Hanks if he hangs out here. There are many scared folks who will... Oh wait they already posted.

Love and light,

 

[Polterwurst]

?

Well, there's forum trolls and then there's forum honeybadgers. They won't stop until someone throws in the towel and quits.

 

[SRL+]

Well, there's forum trolls and then there's forum honeybadgers. They won't stop until someone throws in the towel and quits.

Four posts out of 186 is hardly trolling, as two were arguably constructive, and may I add to your favor, that is if you’re referring to me.

 

[Randall]

Science and Sacraments: Psychedelic Research and Mystical Experiences
Watch this and learn something Randall. YOU have obviously fallen prey to biased media-programming of fear around this topic. Perhaps this well-produced piece will open you up a bit and temper your paranoia concerning proper psychotropical use.

Although your own presumptions about my exposure to a variety of points of view are not accurate, and you seem to have missed the posts where I described two experiences of people I personally knew, at least the video you posted addresses the topic, albeit not as precisely as it should. My posts here have already contained statements acknowledging that the use of hallucinogenics under controlled circumstances, may ( or may not ) have a positive therapeutic effect and may ( or may not ) lead to insights that the user can take with them after they come down into their normal state. You don't need to convince me of that.

What I've been concerned with here aren't carefully monitored clinical experiments with pharmaceutical grade agents. I also think most people in this thread are tired of me having to repeat what my concerns are, so instead of doing that ( yet again ), I'd rather that you didn't misrepresent my statements by trivializing them, and I would urge any new readers of this thread to review my previous posts. If you would like to discuss some specific issues brought up in the video, I'm also open to that, but I'll leave it up to you to pick the issue.

 

[Ufocurious]

Science and Sacraments: Psychedelic Research and Mystical Experiences

Thank you so much for posting this video!
It does answer some of my doubts, and better yet, points to new directions.
I simply loved it!

 

[technomage]

I have heard that real LSD is hard to find these days. But it seems you guys got high and happy. I didn't know LSD impairs locomotor actions such as putting a DVD on. Looks like you really did a huge dose. Did you guys have the metallic taste in your mouths? Was it hard to come back to reality? I am curious, because I no nothing about it.

My friends brought it to us several years ago and I am not sure how they got it unfortunately, so it was a one-time thing.

I don't recall the metallic taste, but my memory has never been that good anyway.

The first thing that I noticed was that the outside started getting a bit bright, then I had some anxiety and took some gabapentin, which helped. Then the next thing I knew, I was in the other room and my wife was looking at me and I didn't know how I got there. In the meantime, I kept saying "I don't feel anything".

The problem with the DVD was that I lost track of what I was doing and what time was, so I was standing with the DVD for a while I think and had difficulty doing something that required logical steps.

There was a lot of walking around and ridiculous conversations.

We also took multiple doses so that it basically took all day and only in the late evening did it wear off.

 

[Polterwurst]

Four posts out of 186 is hardly trolling, as two were arguably constructive, and may I add to your favor, that is if you’re referring to me.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I was referring to Ufology. I don't think that you have successfully driven anyone away from the forum, as he has, nor would you probably want to. As he probably doesnt either, but that's what he ultimately does.

Perhaps there will be readers in the public who come across this who will care, even if you don't. Why should they not have the benefit of an alternate point of view?

You have stated your alternate point of view more than once. And after the thread opener asked you politely not to turn her thread into another forum war, you just went on. When she asked you again directly, you ignored her again. Does the word "Netiquette" mean anything to you? Or just plain politeness? If it's so important to you to speak out against drugs and "UFO drug cults", you could simply have started your own thread. But the honeybadger don't care, right? He just goes on badgering. I'm sorry but I'll have to Ignore you, although that probably means that I won't be able to make sense of every third or second thread any more.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I've addressed some of the above in past posts to quote:

"Legalization is a separate issue. Whether or not these substances are good for us shouldn't necessarily have a bearing on the rights of individuals to use them. However I think it should have a bearing on the rights of individuals who choose to use them to receive medical benefits and other payouts from society at large that result from the high-risk behavior."

"I'm sure it's possible that drugs can have some therapeutic effect, and my personal view is that most of it should be legalized and regulated, but that doesn't mean I think it's good for people, and I still encourage people to stay off the happy pills, or whatever jungle juice version of the same they're tempted to explore, and deal with reality "up close and personal" without the drugs."

"Actually, I think the whole "War On Drugs" was ( is ) a waste of time and money and a drain on resources that would be better spent doing other things.

"For other people who don't mind losing their credibility and their brain cells in pursuit of the insights that may ( or may not ) come from drug induced experiences, I think that should be, at least for the most part, a choice that is theirs, and that they shouldn't be unfairly persecuted ( or prosecuted ) for it."
​

As for the role that hallucinogenics have played as an "agent of human evolution", before I would be "utterly convinced" of that, I think I'd need to see more evidence. Can you please provide links to a few papers by evolutionary experts who agree with that hypothesis? The only tangible evidence I see in action comes from tribes that have remained very primitive compared to the modern society you and I live in, so maybe its impact as an "agent" for those lines of evolution has been detrimental rather than progressive. I see no evidence that the last 6000 ( or however many years ) of use for them has made them any smarter or stronger than the rest of us. Do you?

No, I have no links to provide because me conviction is based solely on my own experiences. Psychedelics cause thought patterns that while not impossible without, happen more frequently and (I think) of a greater magnitude. The scope for lateral thinking of the most extreme kind, in my mind, would very possibly enable primitive man to make leaps of thought and understanding that may otherwise elude. It certainly did for me and other people I know, so my conviction is an extrapolation of that thought. I have no scientific proof to offer.

 

[Randall]

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I was referring to Ufology. I don't think that you have successfully driven anyone away from the forum, as he has, nor would you probably want to. As he probably doesnt either, but that's what he ultimately does.

You have stated your alternate point of view more than once. And after the thread opener asked you politely not to turn her thread into another forum war, you just went on. When she asked you again directly, you ignored her again. Does the word "Netiquette" mean anything to you? Or just plain politeness?

If you were using netiquette or being polite, you'd be addressing the issues raised rather than attacking the poster. I also deny that I have "driven anyone away from the forum". In my view everyone is free to participate in the public forums and in actual fact, it is others who are trying to limit my participation, not me trying to limit theirs. So please get your facts straight, deal with the issues, and refrain from personal attacks.

If it's so important to you to speak out against drugs and "UFO drug cults", you could simply have started your own thread. But the honeybadger don't care, right? He just goes on badgering. I'm sorry but I'll have to Ignore you, although that probably means that I won't be able to make sense of every third or second thread any more.

Again, rather than attacking the poster with allusions to the animal kingdom ( LOL ), please try to address the content.

 

[Randall]

No, I have no links to provide because me conviction is based solely on my own experiences. Psychedelics cause thought patterns that while not impossible without, happen more frequently and (I think) of a greater magnitude. The scope for lateral thinking of the most extreme kind, in my mind, would very possibly enable primitive man to make leaps of thought and understanding that may otherwise elude. It certainly did for me and other people I know, so my conviction is an extrapolation of that thought. I have no scientific proof to offer.

Thanks for being honest. I don't have any scientific proof either, but there is enough historical evidence that ancient cultures used drugs and that they probably helped some people sometimes and caused problems other times. Maybe somewhere along the way they caused some sort of mutation in our genes:

"Scientists at the Scripps Research Institute, California, questioned more than 1000 people attending a medical clinic on their drug use, including use of nicotine and alcohol. They found that people who reported abusing illegal drugs were four times more likely to have two copies of the mutated gene than people without drug or alcohol problems. About 3.7 per cent of the people in the study had this double mutation, the team says ... " ( Article )​

So hypothetically, at least it's possible that over millennia of use, some mutation did contribute positively to our genetic evolution. I think it's also reasonable to assume that the use of drugs has driven some aspects of our technological evolution. Consider the opium poppy and how it was grown, refined, and traded in ancient times. Driven by the demand, somebody had to figure that all out, and it became big business even back then, and has continued to be researched in high-tech labs and grow-ops all the way to the present day. And then there are cultural contributions, particularly in the arts.

Finally, as is indicated in the title of this thread, there is a connection between drug use and ufos by way of hallucinogenic interactions with alien entities cooked up by the user's imagination. I would not be surprised to find out that some of the ancient rock carvings of wide-eyed alien looking humanoids are actually attempts to record those experiences. So it's not like I don't get what people are saying here. There's no question that intoxicants have been a part of human civilization from ancient times until the present. All I'm doing is providing some balance and suggesting that we should be careful how this is all presented.

 

[smcder]

Constance, i agree with a lot of what you wrote.

In that specific dmt example, an isolated one at that, it seems that the indivudual's pursuit of a rocketship high led him to an experience he personally connected to the Heaven's Gate crew, my own Ufological nemesis. Yes, drugs expand consciousness and create intensities of feelings very difficult to forget, but not all things found here are truths. I advocate meditation before drugs to explore or to heal. And btw some meditators also report "alien" contact. So before I would reach out to telepathic communication from unknown entities as the source I would look more closely at the commonalities that go along with certain experiences taking place inside the common, finite territory of the cerebellum and our society. I like John Mack's work over Hopkins' but would debate the source of the internal experience still.

The experience of seeing different types of aliens (reptilian, greys, Nordics etc.), elves, dwarves etc. appear to have socio-cultural connections, as do even the different kinds of ships seem to be tied to different geographies and points in time. I've often thought that what we see, think we see, or hallucinate, are very much tied to the nature of the stimulus and its interaction with our own culturally programmed, or frontloaded, experiences.

If we could separate the witnesses of nuts and bolts craft from the experiencesrs of ayhuasca I would argue that what they are seeing has everything to do with the drug and it's specific effects: again examples above include goblin acid & e.l.wisty's reference to a common substance that routinely produces violent imagery for the experiencer. So it's not really about an external agent, but an internal effect tied mostly to the chemistries involved (brain and drug interaction) and the socio-cultural parameters of the experiencer. Set and setting define much of any hallucinogenic experience.

Consistency in DMT then is about its chemistry more than anything else. The reporting of a vision as a substantial reality being experienced is not about stepping into an actual dimension IMHO but all about the same feelings one has upon waking up from a dream that features many familiar faces from the real world and in an environment that felt real, and so we wake up often with the same feelings as if that dream really did happen. Some dreams have impact for days, months maybe; some are even unforgettable. But just like powerful drug induced experiences, it does not mean they are real, no matter the emotional intensity or conviction the experiencer brings to the table. It's still an entheogenic fabrication. No telepathy at all.

What I agree very much with is the opportunity to see an interconnectivity or even an understanding of certain processes, or perhaps even hidden knowledge, that may come out of the hallucinogenic experience. It certainly allows people in some cases to eradicate the veil of consumer society & see through notions of pretense, fabrication and some of the junk we've all been brainwashed with. Some people do this by thinking it through, meditating, and others take mushrooms and are then allowed to remove the traditional anxiety that mortality brings to us. Others though may stumble directly into a rearrangement of reality, and contrary to some above posts, I do know people who walked through the doors of perception and then could not walk back through; because, their mind got rearranged by the drugs permanently and they have never been the same since.

As for personal, carefully planned research into ayhuasca, I see this as a positive if it is a positive for the person choosing that path and who am I to say otherwise. That's what free will is all about.

"... I would look more closely at the commonalities that go along with certain experiences taking place inside the common, finite territory of the cerebellum ..."

Cerebellum?

Woman found to be missing cerebellum in brain - CBS News

;-)

I meditate but it has risks too and should be done with some formal guidance in some kind of context ... and not everyone is temperamentally suited to meditate ... although there are many many techniques available.

I would suggest persons might consider meditating before during and after involvement with psychedelics/entheogens.

 

[Burnt State]

I didn't know LSD impairs locomotor actions such as putting a DVD on. Looks like you really did a huge dose. Did you guys have the metallic taste in your mouths? Was it hard to come back to reality?

Oh that Metallc taste like ELECTRICITY in your mouth. Cigarettes are like breathing when you get that way. Locomotion is very much impaired. Slipping out of your ego requires a Terrifying Jolt out of yourself but you slide back to reality slow and easy. You look like a raccoon the next day with black circles under the eyes and fingers yellow from tar. Not something I'd reccomend anymore but only an entheogen can let you face the nihilist void with such sheer joy. And for others, sheer horror show. The best frights are found there. Caution and a good guide are strongly advised. It's not a good solo journey. And above all else never ever start drinking while here as you'll never feel it and you run the risk of pickling or poisoning yourself. The alcohol hammer will strike you down at evening's end, right to the ground should you decide to mix such things all night long. Pity the fool who mixes their toxins and reaps hard rewards.

 

[Constance]

Finally, as is indicated in the title of this thread, there is a connection between drug use and ufos by way of hallucinogenic interactions with alien entities cooked up by the user's imagination. I would not be surprised to find out that some of the ancient rock carvings of wide-eyed alien looking humanoids are actually attempts to record those experiences. So it's not like I don't get what people are saying here. There's no question that intoxicants have been a part of human civilization from ancient times until the present. All I'm doing is providing some balance and suggesting that we should be careful how this is all presented.

Do you mean the ufo and alien figures in ancient rock art were attempts to record actual ufo sightings and encounters, or that the rock artists were attempting to represent what they saw under the influence of mind-altering substances (thus merely 'figments of their imaginations')? Either interpretation might be valid.

 

[Constance]

Oh that Metallc taste like ELECTRICITY in your mouth. Cigarettes are like breathing when you get that way. Locomotion is very much impaired. Slipping out of your ego requires a Terrifying Jolt out of yourself but you slide back to reality slow and easy. You look like a raccoon the next day with black circles under the eyes and fingers yellow from tar. Not something I'd reccomend anymore but only an entheogen can let you face the nihilist void with such sheer joy. And for others, sheer horror show. The best frights are found there. Caution and a good guide are strongly advised. It's not a good solo journey. And above all else never ever start drinking while here as you'll never feel it and you run the risk of pickling or poisoning yourself. The alcohol hammer will strike you down at evening's end, right to the ground should you decide to mix such things all night long. Pity the fool who mixes their toxins and reaps hard rewards.

"The nihilist void"? It does sound as if you have had some very 'bad trips', perhaps as a result of 'mixing' substances you now regard uniformly as 'toxins'. Are you willing to provide more detailed information? I also wonder how relevant your experiences might be to the standard use of ayahuasca alone.

 

[smcder]

Oh that Metallc taste like ELECTRICITY in your mouth. Cigarettes are like breathing when you get that way. Locomotion is very much impaired. Slipping out of your ego requires a Terrifying Jolt out of yourself but you slide back to reality slow and easy. You look like a raccoon the next day with black circles under the eyes and fingers yellow from tar. Not something I'd reccomend anymore but only an entheogen can let you face the nihilist void with such sheer joy. And for others, sheer horror show. The best frights are found there. Caution and a good guide are strongly advised. It's not a good solo journey. And above all else never ever start drinking while here as you'll never feel it and you run the risk of pickling or poisoning yourself. The alcohol hammer will strike you down at evening's end, right to the ground should you decide to mix such things all night long. Pity the fool who mixes their toxins and reaps hard rewards.

When facing the nihilist void I always ask myself WWND?
Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein. - Fred Nietzsche

Or, if you prefer the movie:

A torinói ló (2011) - IMDb

 

[Randall]

Do you mean the ufo and alien figures in ancient rock art were attempts to record actual ufo sightings and encounters, or that the rock artists were attempting to represent what they saw under the influence of mind-altering substances (thus merely 'figments of their imaginations')? Either interpretation might be valid.

True. Either one or both interpretations might be valid. Give that people in modern times have used tribal shamanic hallucinogens and experienced visions of alien like entities, I doubt that human biochemistry was so different in ancient times that they would not have experienced something similar, and because the agents were readily available to them, and the experiences seem to naturally inspire people to express them in some artistic form or another, I suggest that it is more likely that such petroglyphs, if they represent either one of the choices, probably represents the hallucinogenic variety. In fact I think we can be virtually certain of it. Here's one bloggers point of view ( Jason Colavito ): http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/review-of-ancient-aliens-s06e17-the-shamans

 

[Constance]

True. Either one or both interpretations might be valid. Give that people in modern times have used tribal shamanic hallucinogens and experienced visions of alien like entities, I doubt that human biochemistry was so different in ancient times that they would not have experienced something similar, and because the agents were readily available to them, and the experiences seem to naturally inspire people to express them in some artistic form or another, I suggest that it is more likely that such petroglyphs, if they represent either one of the choices, probably represents the hallucinogenic variety. In fact I think we can be virtually certain of it. Here's one bloggers point of view ( Jason Colavito ): http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/review-of-ancient-aliens-s06e17-the-shamans

I don't think so, but it will take a long time to develop the reasons why. The conversation in this thread in the last week has come close to expressing critically important issues in consciousness studies and in the general trend toward thinking holistically about the nature of reality in contemporary culture.