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WTF Are We Talking About?
- Thread starter Rick Deckard
- Start date
Free episodes:
The Pair of Cats
a.k.a Philip Deane
The problem is that you may have entitiies visiting us from many different realms and to label them as coming from one or the other without really knowing where it is they come from can make it even more confusing.
And then there's the point of, if we use a generic term, what one do we use? Already on this thread i have seen several and to know which one to use so that it can be adopted for universal use is also difficult.
And then there's the point of, if we use a generic term, what one do we use? Already on this thread i have seen several and to know which one to use so that it can be adopted for universal use is also difficult.
The Pair of Cats said:
even if you dont have many or even no details behind the labels they at least allow you to differentiate between examples.
sometimes you have to label a set of empty boxes and sort the data into them based on common criteria, if sub patterns form within a box that trip a set threshold, then you open a new box with a new label for this sub species of data.
that seems to be how we do things, botany for example with all its lovely latin labels.
first thing you need if you are going to sort data into sets, and subsets is lots of labels.
and the more complex the data the more complex the labels need to be.
simple sets can be described with labels like examples A, B and C
but take the tomato
Kingdom: Plantae
Subkingdom: Tracheobionta
Division: Magnoliophyta
Class: Magnoliopsida
Subclass: Asteridae
Order: Solanales
Family: Solanaceae
Genus: Solanum
Species: S. lycopersicum
and thats just a tomato, at first glance youd never know its "label" was so complex
transpose that to thanksgiving dinner and the list of "labels" gets insane, so we just say pass the tomato's its easier. but science needs those labels in full detail, thats the nature of the beast
The Pair of Cats
a.k.a Philip Deane
Mike.
To give them a label you first have to know where they are coming from and it's apparent that these entities aren't exactly forthcoming with the locations.
To give them a label you first have to know where they are coming from and it's apparent that these entities aren't exactly forthcoming with the locations.
assuming some of the testimonials are true some of them have tried to convey where they are from, so we automatically need a box for cases where they do say where they are from.
when you dig down deep enough the science of labels is language itself. language is just a collection of labels.
the discussion iteslf is testimonial to that .
some fish return every year to one place to spawn, but if i came across one on the beach i would be able to label it a fish, without knowing where it came from.
the devil as always is in the detail, generic terms are useful. if every product on the supermarket shelf were labeled as per the tomato example....... sometimes simple labels work better than complex ones.
the moment you use language to describe a thing youve labeled it.
the detail invariably follows in time
"To give them a label you first have to know where they are coming from and it's apparent that these entities aren't exactly forthcoming with the locations. "
not so, youve already used language and thus labeled ,"them" "they" "these" "entities", and ascribed them "locations" as yet undefined.
language itself is a collection of labels, and we invent new words and concepts all the time, thats the trend, the alternative in entropic.
when you dig down deep enough the science of labels is language itself. language is just a collection of labels.
the discussion iteslf is testimonial to that .
some fish return every year to one place to spawn, but if i came across one on the beach i would be able to label it a fish, without knowing where it came from.
the devil as always is in the detail, generic terms are useful. if every product on the supermarket shelf were labeled as per the tomato example....... sometimes simple labels work better than complex ones.
the moment you use language to describe a thing youve labeled it.
the detail invariably follows in time
"To give them a label you first have to know where they are coming from and it's apparent that these entities aren't exactly forthcoming with the locations. "
not so, youve already used language and thus labeled ,"them" "they" "these" "entities", and ascribed them "locations" as yet undefined.
language itself is a collection of labels, and we invent new words and concepts all the time, thats the trend, the alternative in entropic.
The Pair of Cats
a.k.a Philip Deane
mike said:
That's just gobbedlygook,Mike!!!
Your assuming that these "them, they, these, entities" would bother to tell you the truth. I could say i was from Peru, doesn't mean that it's true.
What if they are interdimensional beings passing themselves off as intergalactic travellers? or cryptoterrestrial humanoids telling abductees that they come from Uranus? Do we believe them? And why should we?
It doesn't really matter WHERE they come from. It's semantics. NO-ONE REALLY KNOWS THE TRUTH OF IT!!!
To worry about labels and origins of the craft/beings/travellers/whatever is just a distraction and a talking point because there is nothing NEW happening that is more exciting, It's just rehashing old ideas.
But go ahead give them a thousand different names for the possibly limitless amount of places that they may come from, if it makes you feel better about them/they/these/entities from locations as yet undefined.
The Pair of Cats
a.k.a Philip Deane
Actually Mike i've decided to give them/the/these things a label, an acronym if you like!
I am going to call them F.U.C.K.E.R.S (FOREIGN UNIVERSAL CRITTERS (that) KNOW EARTHMEN REALLY SUCK)
So if you ever get abducted and you forget to ask them where they are from and they decide not to volunteer the info freely,
when asked you can say i was abducted by some little/big/huge gray/green/orange F.U.C.K.E.R.S from fuck knows where!
I am going to call them F.U.C.K.E.R.S (FOREIGN UNIVERSAL CRITTERS (that) KNOW EARTHMEN REALLY SUCK)
So if you ever get abducted and you forget to ask them where they are from and they decide not to volunteer the info freely,
when asked you can say i was abducted by some little/big/huge gray/green/orange F.U.C.K.E.R.S from fuck knows where!
Graphimancer
Skilled Investigator
Wow, if F.U.C.K.E.R.S. attack, we should develop a color coded warning system so the populace will be on alert. It's an Orange alert! Yellow? Calm down, it's a Blue alert... wait, is that good or bad?
What's important is that you all keep shopping and spending money! Be alert, and buy duct tape and plastic sheeting, but also go to the mall and spend! War is hard! We'll keep the death and suffering and indignity of war far away, and not show you any flag-draped coffins flying in, so you can spend, spend, spend!
What's important is that you all keep shopping and spending money! Be alert, and buy duct tape and plastic sheeting, but also go to the mall and spend! War is hard! We'll keep the death and suffering and indignity of war far away, and not show you any flag-draped coffins flying in, so you can spend, spend, spend!
"Is it time to leave the terms 'ET', 'ETH' and 'ETI' behind?
Are those terms too 'loaded'? Are they even relevant in the context of UFOs, which are by definition 'unidentified'.
Should we adopt more generic, less provocative terms?
Any suggestions? "
The topic is about "term"inology, not answers.
the question being should we have more or less "terminology" in regards to the UFO mystery.
i simply contend that as long as we use language to describe the apparent occupants, we will always end up with as diverse a set of terminology as we do individual descriptions and perceptions.
at no stage did i say that these labels and subsequent grouping provide "satisfying" answers, i simply refute the suggestion we need less terminology.
labels such as crypto terrestrial or extra terrestrial may have no reality behind them at all. we may be alone.....
even so the terms themself are useful in that they describe/differentiate the two possibilities.
the smaller the pallet the cruder the picture we paint.
for may years it never occured to me that we could be seeing craft of a terrestrial race that sick of loosing tomato's to ice ages packed up and went and lived under the south pole, or the moon.
i only had the ET concept to associate with the craft that people are seeing in our skies.
having alternative concepts, extra colours if you will on my pallet, allows me to look at the question with greater "scope" for understanding.
and labels and boxes ARE useful even if the contents dont "satisfy"
an example
some abductees report the "aliens" (to use a generic) have stated where they come from......
so i need a box labelled alien locations as per abductees reports.
and then i can file all those cases where abductees report a source for the aliens. but wait.... one armed swiss farmers......
hot damn now i need 2 boxes with labels one labeled with the sub category "sources that seem credible", and one "sources that are obvious liars"
by differentiating, i am able to filter. thats useful
before you can "sort the wheat from the chaff", you need labels for wheat and chaff.
my point is that labels usually have detail behind them, wheat for example
Kingdom: Plantae
Division: Magnoliophyta
Class: Liliopsida
Order: Poales
Family: Poaceae
Subfamily: Pooideae
Tribe: Triticeae
Genus: Triticum
so now we are down to a chicken and egg scenario. do we create concept labels first and flesh them out with established detailed facts or wait for the physical evidence and then label the object.
the trend so far has been to start with a generic label and add detail as it becomes available, long before there was latin there was "wheat"
or to answer the first question in the thread......... No, they are useful labels for concepts, the concepts express possibilitys, and one should be open to all and any possibility where these craft are concerned
Are those terms too 'loaded'? Are they even relevant in the context of UFOs, which are by definition 'unidentified'.
Should we adopt more generic, less provocative terms?
Any suggestions? "
The topic is about "term"inology, not answers.
the question being should we have more or less "terminology" in regards to the UFO mystery.
i simply contend that as long as we use language to describe the apparent occupants, we will always end up with as diverse a set of terminology as we do individual descriptions and perceptions.
at no stage did i say that these labels and subsequent grouping provide "satisfying" answers, i simply refute the suggestion we need less terminology.
labels such as crypto terrestrial or extra terrestrial may have no reality behind them at all. we may be alone.....
even so the terms themself are useful in that they describe/differentiate the two possibilities.
the smaller the pallet the cruder the picture we paint.
for may years it never occured to me that we could be seeing craft of a terrestrial race that sick of loosing tomato's to ice ages packed up and went and lived under the south pole, or the moon.
i only had the ET concept to associate with the craft that people are seeing in our skies.
having alternative concepts, extra colours if you will on my pallet, allows me to look at the question with greater "scope" for understanding.
and labels and boxes ARE useful even if the contents dont "satisfy"
an example
some abductees report the "aliens" (to use a generic) have stated where they come from......
so i need a box labelled alien locations as per abductees reports.
and then i can file all those cases where abductees report a source for the aliens. but wait.... one armed swiss farmers......
hot damn now i need 2 boxes with labels one labeled with the sub category "sources that seem credible", and one "sources that are obvious liars"
by differentiating, i am able to filter. thats useful
before you can "sort the wheat from the chaff", you need labels for wheat and chaff.
my point is that labels usually have detail behind them, wheat for example
Kingdom: Plantae
Division: Magnoliophyta
Class: Liliopsida
Order: Poales
Family: Poaceae
Subfamily: Pooideae
Tribe: Triticeae
Genus: Triticum
so now we are down to a chicken and egg scenario. do we create concept labels first and flesh them out with established detailed facts or wait for the physical evidence and then label the object.
the trend so far has been to start with a generic label and add detail as it becomes available, long before there was latin there was "wheat"
or to answer the first question in the thread......... No, they are useful labels for concepts, the concepts express possibilitys, and one should be open to all and any possibility where these craft are concerned
Manu
Paranormal Novice
A problem with considering labels for an unknown is that we have no way of knowing if general labels are accurate for all sub-categories (extra-terrestrial may not be an accurate concept covering time-travelers or cryptos), but if we make labels so broad as to be all-inclusive, they almost become meaningless (ie "visitors"). I'm not even sure if "beings" is accurate.
As far as theories (WTF we are talking about) are concerned, I count seven:
1. Extra-terrestrial nuts and bolts crafts carrying beings (or probes) from other planets.
2. Time travelers (from earth or elsewhere; may or may not have physical devices).
3. Inter-dimensional travelers. (Includes folklore, elementals, and higher and lower beings and gods.)
4. Jungian/Vallee manifestations of unconscious creations (either individual or collective).
5. Advanced or experimental US (and perhaps other) military craft.
6. Intentional hoaxes, deceptions, and misdirection.
7. Crypto terrestrial.
Also: Uninentional mistakes and misidentifications. (This is not really a category but accounts for alot of the noise.)
Many of these theories are mutually exclusive, so we are almost certainly seeing different phenomena.
As far as theories (WTF we are talking about) are concerned, I count seven:
1. Extra-terrestrial nuts and bolts crafts carrying beings (or probes) from other planets.
2. Time travelers (from earth or elsewhere; may or may not have physical devices).
3. Inter-dimensional travelers. (Includes folklore, elementals, and higher and lower beings and gods.)
4. Jungian/Vallee manifestations of unconscious creations (either individual or collective).
5. Advanced or experimental US (and perhaps other) military craft.
6. Intentional hoaxes, deceptions, and misdirection.
7. Crypto terrestrial.
Also: Uninentional mistakes and misidentifications. (This is not really a category but accounts for alot of the noise.)
Many of these theories are mutually exclusive, so we are almost certainly seeing different phenomena.
CapnG
Devil's Advocate
Manu said:
What are you basing that on? What I mean is, what if these entities are the descendants of a crypto-terrestrial race who migrated off earth in the past, went to live in another star system and are now travelling back in time via some interdimensional process?
See... not so easy, is it?
A
ArizonaWill
Guest
My mom referred to them as Bogeymen" so BMs could be a modern acronym for the entire phenomena. I can visualize it now at ufo conferences "I had a huge BM experience last night."
Since some folks here do not know I am jesting at times, I will explain that it is a play on words. BM can also stand for Bowel Movement.
Hilarious, eh? Yeah, moving right along. I realize this adds nothing to the conversation, but sometimes folks seem to get so intense and serious about something they cannot hope to solve or even define adequately.
Maybe I need to Lurk for a long time.
Since some folks here do not know I am jesting at times, I will explain that it is a play on words. BM can also stand for Bowel Movement.
Hilarious, eh? Yeah, moving right along. I realize this adds nothing to the conversation, but sometimes folks seem to get so intense and serious about something they cannot hope to solve or even define adequately.
Maybe I need to Lurk for a long time.
DamnDirtyApe
Skilled Investigator
Manu said:
How would you classify a species that originated on another planet, came here 75k years ago and has been living on Earth since then, and exists in more than one plane of reality at once? a "1-3-7" ?
i think it has something to do with "expanded" conciousness...
the more possible realitys you are concious off as concepts, the greater the chance of a "match" with the reality you may experience.
a primitive with a limited set concepts would see gods
modern man tends to by default see "space aliens"
if the truth is they are lizard men from beneath the earth, neither of the above examples has the expansion of conciousness to be able to recognise the facts. the concept sets they are concious of, do not include that possibilty so they will never grasp the reality.
having a 1-3-7 is the way to go, being open to an 8 -9 -10 is essential
if nothing else it makes us better observers, i wonder how many abductees only have the ET concept with which to interpret what they see .
the more possible realitys you are concious off as concepts, the greater the chance of a "match" with the reality you may experience.
a primitive with a limited set concepts would see gods
modern man tends to by default see "space aliens"
if the truth is they are lizard men from beneath the earth, neither of the above examples has the expansion of conciousness to be able to recognise the facts. the concept sets they are concious of, do not include that possibilty so they will never grasp the reality.
having a 1-3-7 is the way to go, being open to an 8 -9 -10 is essential
if nothing else it makes us better observers, i wonder how many abductees only have the ET concept with which to interpret what they see .
Graphimancer
Skilled Investigator
I like this classification system. It worked well enough for Heinick (sp?), with his encounter systems of three types, that later got expanded to four.
Of course, it wouldn't work in that the entities never say where they are from, and, if they do, then they could be lying.
Of course, it wouldn't work in that the entities never say where they are from, and, if they do, then they could be lying.
Brian Now
Paranormal Pimp
ArizonaWill said:
Lordy me! I go away from the boards for one whole day and somebody else got banned. Usually you don't get kicked off until 20 pages of a keyboard-clickin' dogfight have stacked up. What did I miss?
I'm afraid banning is going to get so frequent that I am going to return from vacation and David will have inadvertently banned Gene!
DamnDirtyApe
Skilled Investigator
Brian Now said:ArizonaWill said:
Lordy me! I go away from the boards for one whole day and somebody else got banned. Usually you don't get kicked off until 20 pages of a keyboard-clickin' dogfight have stacked up. What did I miss?
I'm afraid banning is going to get so frequent that I am going to return from vacation and David will have inadvertently banned Gene!
LOL.. I wonder what happened?
Will seems totally harmless.
DanielBrenton
Jack of All Trades, Master of 1 or 2
CapnG said:DamnDirtyApe said:
Indeed... Colour me confused...
Will told me he felt his humor was misunderstood, and he felt like he needed to stop spending his time on UFO boards, so he asked to be locked out. This was apparently the best way to do it. Entirely voluntary.
That's one way to stay away, huh?
(They do kind of eat up time, don't they?)