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April 4th show - Hopkins, Randle & Jacobs

  • Thread starter Thread starter Paul Kimball
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I'm sorry but i just don't see how Kevin Randle or anyone else did anything particularly to shoot down hopkins or jacobs arguments here. Randle's was maybe some of the weakest points i have heard in these kind of debates so far...or maybe it was just his way of presenting them...in any case, i wasnt impressed. Besides that, it occurred to me to be the usual backwards-forwards thing that is usually is...don't get me wrong, its quite informative in its own way, as you always get some details from them that they havent written in any of their books. But this discussion was far from being a final nail in the abduction coffin

I also think that we should severely question the information that has been accumulated through hypnosis, but i think its ridiculous to imply that ALL of the work that Jacobs and Hopkins has made has been a waste of time. I also wish they could be coerced to think more about the possibility of deception that Gene started drilling into towards the end, but i dont think this is the right way to go about it to get them out of their box...i think these debates have proved this time and time again.

Ultimately i think you just got to take what you can from it and acknowledge that the abduction phenomena is just one part the 'experience phenomena', as Jerome Clark calls it, and that it has changed its dominant faces a lot over time..and that it can be so convincing of a hybrid-alien program that someone like hopkins & dr. jacobs are so stuck to the idea. I suggest we look more into what we can gain in the bigger picture from them, instead of just making this tiring anti-abduction crusade (sometimes led by people with even more far out ideas, only in other areas). I could understand if they were on the verge of creating a potentially large cult with destructive ramifications...then i would understand the hard line. But i just suggest that we take their research as just a part of the bigger phenomenon, and how it can express itself, at least until some better evidence comes up to either shoot it completely down, or elevate it further to support their theories.
 
You listened to a different interview than we participated in. The one we participated in involved Hopkins and Jacobs effectively defeating their own case with their responses.

It's just a difference in style. I liked the David Biedny style (at least in his "classic" episodes in 2006 and 2007 before he seemed to become so imbittered). Call a spade a spade. Interviews that require the audience to infer that the guest is bogus are fine, but a lot of folks don't get it. They take it at face value, especially in our current confrontational culture where people EXPECT that if there is validity to a criticism, that criticism will be layed out firmly. If the response is lame, the guest will be told so right to their face! Isn't it about time someone told Hopkins and Jacobs that they are full of BS? Why must we simply infer it from their words? They probably came out of this interview thinking they smelled like 2 fragrant roses on the Mount Olympus of Ufology. Unless you agreed with their view, I wish you or Kevin would have just said so. David would have.

I realize you may reply that this is not your style. I understand that. That is why it seemed "Larry King" to me. Just like Larry King, you pretty much let the guys ramble on and on without much of any refutation. To the listening audience, that infers agreement. I realize this particular interview may have been hard for you, since it requires "burning down the house" of ufology in terms of abduction research. But if that house is built on faulty timbers, it needs to be taken down before more people get hurt. I once respected Budd Hopkins and David Jacobs greatly, but the more I learned about clinical hypnosis, the more I became suspect, then bitter. Sure, they may never appear on your little podcast again, but is that so terrible? What about the truth? You cannot be the "gold standard" if you don't assertively seek and affirm what is true, or at least what is false. Or as my grandmother used to say "Stop pussy footing around! Get to the point!"

I always end up editing my post. Sorry! I thought of a question: Is it possible for Kevin Randle to chime in on how he thought the interview went? Other guest hosts like Paul Kimball and Chris O'Brien have done so, but I may have missed any input from Kevin. We each perceive things differently, but my perception was that he was frustrated and would have liked to go for the jugular at times, but perhaps felt constrained. The poor man has been denouncing this witch doctor therapy since he published THE ABDUCTION ENIGMA and very few have listened. I'd be curious for his thoughts on all this.
 
Actually both Jacobs and Hopkins were on the show with the original hosting structure. They weren't asked the questions then that I think they should have been asked. By bringing a skeptic like Randle aboard, we were able to get two sides of the question aired, so the listeners could decide which one was most valid.

I could have hammered Hopkins and Jacobs early on, and they'd just hang up and leave. That would not reveal any details would it? Instead, I let them express their points of view, but asked them key questions, such as why even depend on the information provided by abductees as authentic? That's one that isn't being raised enough in the discussions about whether hypnosis works or not. Remember, many of the cases they have investigated do not involve hypnosis.
 
Actually both Jacobs and Hopkins were on the show with the original hosting structure. They weren't asked the questions then that I think they should have been asked. By bringing a skeptic like Randle aboard, we were able to get two sides of the question aired, so the listeners could decide which one was most valid.

I could have hammered Hopkins and Jacobs early on, and they'd just hang up and leave. That would not reveal any details would it? Instead, I let them express their points of view, but asked them key questions, such as why even depend on the information provided by abductees as authentic? That's one that isn't being raised enough in the discussions about whether hypnosis works or not. Remember, many of the cases they have investigated do not involve hypnosis.

Point taken. I understand.

I never considered they might be rude enough to just hang up. But I suppose that would be a real threat, maybe David Jacob's real "THE THREAT"? Has the Paracast ever had anyone hang up other than a previous co-host that shall remain unnamed?
 
You mean like Bill Knell hanging up on us after about a half hour? And we also hung up on Paola Harris shortly before the show was due to end, because it was clear it was going nowhere.

We also don't just bring on guests knowing they have an ax to grind with other people and are using the show to advance their personal agenda. You know what I'm talking about here, and we aren't going to take The Paracast in that direction.

---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 PM ----------

One more thing: Although The Paracast has gotten a reputation for trashing people, actually there are very few guests who have earned an appropriate tongue-lashing. There are other guests of whom we're just skeptical, but we try to treat them fairly.
 
Sorry to weigh in here again, but a few points:

1. You can be skeptical without trashing the guest or another Forum member. My personal view is that the old Paracast suffered greatly for having the reputation of trashing the guest live, and from banning Forum members who expressed strong, but ultimately non-offensive, views (c.f., the individual who was banned yesterday for anti-semitic remarks). For example, I personally did not agree with the treatment that Richard Dolan received, although I would add that his research is rightfully open to criticism in the proper manner (I think he would agree with this also). In any field, you have to pick your battles carefully, and a battle against a fraudulent Greer is one that is worth fighting. One against Mr. Dolan probably is not.

2. I have found nothing wrong with Archie Bedford's comments, outside of the one post where he strongly went into Ms. Woods mental condition, to which Paul Kimball responded. He is advocating a position, just like others on this Forum, and he is doing so in a positive manner. If he is referring to his personal interactions with Messrs. Hopkins and Jacobs, I believe that is additional insight that we on this Forum would not otherwise have. I for one appreciate the additional insights (e.g., Ms. Woods has been calling Dr. Jacobs incessantly over an extended period of time) so long as those statements are factually correct.

3. Yet once again, we do not have the full story when it comes to the Jacobs/Wood controversy. I personally am hesitant to rush to any judgment given that is the case. Dr. Jacobs' relative silence may be a legal position as much as it is a personal decision, so don't over-interpret it.

4. Hopkins and Jacobs are the first to admit that hypnosis has its issues. However, the more I look into it the more third party supporting evidence there appears to be. I have detailed my own exposure to two alleged abductees earlier in this thread, and the corroborating statements I received from some of their family members, all of whom appeared to be well balanced and relatively objective. The consistency across accounts, including those handled by Dr. John Mack and other trained psychiatrists, also causes one to at least think. I have yet to hear anyone charge Dr. Mack with incompetence or wrongdoing in this whole dialogue, and yet he uncovered very similar fact patterns. We should avoid this becoming a debate solely about hypnosis, because it appears there is more to it than just that (including significant conscious recollections).

Rgds.
 
You mean like Bill Knell hanging up on us after about a half hour? And we also hung up on Paola Harris shortly before the show was due to end, because it was clear it was going nowhere.

We also don't just bring on guests knowing they have an ax to grind with other people and are using the show to advance their personal agenda. You know what I'm talking about here, and we aren't going to take The Paracast in that direction.

---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 PM ----------

One more thing: Although The Paracast has gotten a reputation for trashing people, actually there are very few guests who have earned an appropriate tongue-lashing. There are other guests of whom we're just skeptical, but we try to treat them fairly.

It is my opinion that The Paracast does not "trash" people, rather it exposes to a great extent the hoaxters, idealogues and obvious frauds within the community. Most of the time all we need to hear is said by the perpetrators themselves. A few pointed questions and all of a sudden they realize that they painted themselves into a corner. No trashing required.
 
Sorry to weigh in here again, but a few points:

1. You can be skeptical without trashing the guest or another Forum member. My personal view is that the old Paracast suffered greatly for having the reputation of trashing the guest live, and from banning Forum members who expressed strong, but ultimately non-offensive, views (c.f., the individual who was banned yesterday for anti-semitic remarks). For example, I personally did not agree with the treatment that Richard Dolan received, although I would add that his research is rightfully open to criticism in the proper manner (I think he would agree with this also). In any field, you have to pick your battles carefully, and a battle against a fraudulent Greer is one that is worth fighting. One against Mr. Dolan probably is not.

2. I have found nothing wrong with Archie Bedford's comments, outside of the one post where he strongly went into Ms. Woods mental condition, to which Paul Kimball responded. He is advocating a position, just like others on this Forum, and he is doing so in a positive manner. If he is referring to his personal interactions with Messrs. Hopkins and Jacobs, I believe that is additional insight that we on this Forum would not otherwise have. I for one appreciate the additional insights (e.g., Ms. Woods has been calling Dr. Jacobs incessantly over an extended period of time) so long as those statements are factually correct.

3. Yet once again, we do not have the full story when it comes to the Jacobs/Wood controversy. I personally am hesitant to rush to any judgment given that is the case. Dr. Jacobs' relative silence may be a legal position as much as it is a personal decision, so don't over-interpret it.

4. Hopkins and Jacobs are the first to admit that hypnosis has its issues. However, the more I look into it the more third party supporting evidence there appears to be. I have detailed my own exposure to two alleged abductees earlier in this thread, and the corroborating statements I received from some of their family members, all of whom appeared to be well balanced and relatively objective. The consistency across accounts, including those handled by Dr. John Mack and other trained psychiatrists, also causes one to at least think. I have yet to hear anyone charge Dr. Mack with incompetence or wrongdoing in this whole dialogue, and yet he uncovered very similar fact patterns. We should avoid this becoming a debate solely about hypnosis, because it appears there is more to it than just that (including significant conscious recollections).

Rgds.

If this is addressed to me (point 1), I did not "trash" Archie. I stated my opinion that someone who has publically declared a close relationship to Hopkins and Jacobs, and indeed seems to derive a great deal of a sense of personal identity as an abductee (as they define it) is NOT a valid source for objective opinions about these 2 gentlemen. When you are outside looking in at that meme, it is indeed a "cult" complete with head honcho's who must be defended from the infidels.

I've been lurking here for a very long time. I do not intend to go on a rampage against forum posters. Yet in this case, I felt something obvious needed to be said. Would we say anything less if Michael Horn was participating and continually regaling us with the wisdom of Billy Meier? Yes, Archie does a wonderful job of representing the dynamic duo. He writes well. Nothing I have written will faze him in the least. I didn't intend to. It is perfectly acceptable in my book to point out where someone is literally coming from, i.e., a very strong friendship with the men in question and their tactics.

I simply expressed an opinion, and if others are too wrapped up in the abduction dogma (including regression hypnosis which certainly does give the topic more flavor, i.e., it's the MSG of Ufology!!!) to tolerate such observations, then I apologize.
 
How many times does Gene have to tell us that the Emma Woods tapes could have been altered. He has no evidence this is true, but it is a standard pro-David Jacobs talking point, so let's just keep repeating it ad nauseum.

And how many times have the people most vociferously advocating for "Woods" acknowledged at least the possibility that this may have indeed happened, to a far greater extent than she admits? There is what seems to me some pretty blind acceptance of her claims on "the other side" - and I say that as someone who is about as far as a defender of Jacobs, Hopkins et al as you can get, and that's not a recent development.

Altering audio is easy. Anyone with a personal computer can do it. Last night, I took the last episode of the Paracast (with Nick, Greg and I discussing Mac's latest book), and created - in 15 minutes - an excerpted, abridged, i.e. highly edited version as a sort of synopsis to upload on YouTube and a few other places. Here it is:


I made over two dozen audio cuts. I challenge anyone to find them all (I know the exact number).

All that I'm saying is that it's easy to do. It's worth repeating, until and unless "Woods" releases the entire, unedited version of the tapes.

That's not just a talking point. That's looking at both sides of the issue between the two of them (Jacobs and "Woods") - both of whom seem to have their talking points, which they repeat ad infinitum. Somewhere in between, I suspect, is the truth... a truth that won't reflect well on either of them, to different degrees and for different reasons.

Which is why the discussion of the pros and cons of alien abduction "research" should not be boiled down to just one case, as some people seem to be doing, and why it was proper for Gene, Chris and Kevin to take a more general approach.

In my opinion, of course. :)
 
Guys,

Just wanted to add one point to the discussion around the credibility of the participants, which may or may not have been discussed previously.

I want to preface my comments with the following disclaimer: I have little knowledge of the work of Budd Hopkins, apart from descriptions he has given during his appearances on the Paracast. He comes across as an earnest researcher, who sincerely cares for the people he deals with. My comments are directed at Hopkins' book: "Witnessed".

I purchased a copy of Witnessed after hearing Hopkins describe it as possibly the best UFO abduction case; with a key feature of the case being the existence of multiple witnesses. Upon reading the book I was shocked by the fantastic scenarios described therein, which Hopkins maintains as fact. If it weren't for the often traumatic subject matter, including a purported kidnapping of the main protaganist, the situations and motivations for the behaviour presented in the book would be laughable.

Reading these this book left me seriously disillusioned about the reliability of Hopkins' research in this case. However, I would urge people to read the book themselves, along with the fictional novel "Nighteyes", by Garfield Reeves-Stevens, which was published prior to the events described in Witnessed, and bears a striking resemblance to some of them.

Interested readers may also wish to check out the following essay:

http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/LindaCase.htm

Regards, Grant
 
If this is addressed to me (point 1), I did not "trash" Archie. I stated my opinion that someone who has publically declared a close relationship to Hopkins and Jacobs, and indeed seems to derive a great deal of a sense of personal identity as an abductee (as they define it) is NOT a valid source for objective opinions about these 2 gentlemen. When you are outside looking in at that meme, it is indeed a "cult" complete with head honcho's who must be defended from the infidels.

I've been lurking here for a very long time. I do not intend to go on a rampage against forum posters. Yet in this case, I felt something obvious needed to be said. Would we say anything less if Michael Horn was participating and continually regaling us with the wisdom of Billy Meier? Yes, Archie does a wonderful job of representing the dynamic duo. He writes well. Nothing I have written will faze him in the least. I didn't intend to. It is perfectly acceptable in my book to point out where someone is literally coming from, i.e., a very strong friendship with the men in question and their tactics.

I simply expressed an opinion, and if others are too wrapped up in the abduction dogma (including regression hypnosis which certainly does spice it up = it's the MSG of Ufology!!!) to tolerate such observations, then I apologize.


Fastwalker, my point 1 was addressed to the posts in this thread discussing the Paracast's reputation as a program which trashes certain of its guests (e.g., Paola Harris), and the past history of banning Forum members, a good number of whom Gene has smartly reinstated. My point 2 went to the appropriateness of Archie Bedford's posts. Mr. Bedford is clearly an advocate for one side given his past abduction experiences and exposure to Messrs. Hopkins and Jacobs, which is fine -- and should be encourage given that this is a open forum and he apparently has additional relevant facts to add to the debate. He strikes me as an intelligent individual who is not mechanically advocating the party line without critical thought.

Hope this clears up any misunderstandings.
 
Thank you. Actually, we are seeing this same dynamic playing out in the mainstream. I do not want to get into a debate about religion, but in the wider society we are seeing the claims of literally hundreds (if not thousands) of boys from across the US and now Europe of sexual abuse by Catholic priests. There is evidence that the church covered this up and that it goes to the very pinacle of the church.

Yet we have the same 2 camps:

1. Those who are listening to the true victims and objectively evaluating their claims.
2. Those who march lockstep with the church, who claim that all such accusations are "idle gossip". Since the church is too polite to call thousands of boys "batshit insane" they instead demean the entire topic. There are mouthpieces here in the US who are invited to all the typical cable news channels to defend the church and debase the victims. I can envision a forum devoted to this controversy, with someone hypthetically named Archibald saying "The Pope and I are very close personal friends, and I am on a first name basis with all the Bishops of the Church. I've broken bread and wind with them all on occasion, and see nothing suspect in their hands-on instructions to the altar boys under their care. They assure me that this is pure idle gossip and that the mainstream media is simply stalking the church to defame its sterling reputation! The boys who are making these accusations are obviously bi-polar, borderline multiple personality oriented gender confused protestants!" :p

I am sure my little analogy isn't too hard for anyone to understand.

.

Yes it bloody well is
. This a disgusting comparison or analogy or whatever the *$%* you want to call it. DISGUSTING. How dare you compare this rather trivial fringe topic to the HORRENDOUS abuse of VUNERABLE CHILDREN by psychos and perverts in positions of absolute power over them. It blows my mind that you think it's in any way appropriate or witty to bring the hell that has occured to tens of thousands of children and post it flippantly to make any self-serving point on this forum. Have you known some of the victims or this evil and the equally inhuman cover up that has gone on for decades at least. I do. Do you know what it's like to have to deal with the ongoing trauma, the pain, the wasted lives? We are talking about continual RAPE of children. Vicious torture and beatings. What the hell are you talking about????
 
Sorry, but something just crossed my mind after talking with a friend who is also into paranormal subjects. To be clear, I don't buy into this, but I am going to throw it out for group discussion:

What if Ms. Woods is not acting alone? More specifically, what if she is the front for some type of intelligence operation to discredit Dr. Jacobs and de facto the whole field of abduction research? What if there is more to abductions than most of us are willing to admit, and Dr. Jacobs is getting too close for comfort?

In favor of this theory are the following facts:
- no one knows Ms. Woods' real name, except perhaps Dr. Jacobs and maybe the Paratopia crew; this is even questionable
- she seems to be launching a widespread, long term and well thought through effort to discredit Dr. Jacobs
- if this controversy has been ongoing for a number of years, she seems to have made no apparent effort to seek remedy in a court of law or proper administrative body
- she evidently repeatedly resisted a visit to the U.S. for direct consultation with Dr. Jacobs, even before the controversy exploded
- she apparently lacks any means of financial support, beyond perhaps public welfare support

Against this theory is the following:
- evidently Ms. Woods came to Dr. Jacobs by referral from her (non-U.S. based) psychotherapist; if true, the intelligence agency had to 'turn her' after she started a dialogue with Dr. Jacobs
- she apparently has many legitimate signs of being a genuine abductee, although she could be fed these from the appropriate sources
- Ms. Woods may be more of a risk than the whole alleged scheme is worth; weigh the risk of disclosure of an intelligence scheme against benefits of undercutting Dr. Jacobs
- Dr. Jacobs, Budd Hopkins, et. al. really are on the margin of UFOlogy, are towards the ends of their careers, and this would have been done earlier if it was going to be done at all
- all the factors in favor of this theory above can be explained by other things, including the apparent intensity with which she is pursuing her campaign

I raise this in part because of a video I once saw which attempted to link the 'complex' crop circle phenomenon with an MI-5 sponsored group of individuals. In that instance, I asked the same question: why would fake complex crop circles be worth the trouble on the part of MI-5? The video, which I will try to locate, did a fairly good job of linking the crop circle group to MI-5 (apartments and studios paid for, historical personal linkages, etc.).

I also raise this because a number of level-headed people who listen to the Paracast have broached it with me, but it hasn't appeared on this Forum yet. Again, I personally don't think it is worth any intelligence agency's time and effort, but you at least have to ask yourself the question.
 

In my ongoing attempts to keep this from becoming just about Emma Woods, particularly as there are two sides to that story involved in an ongoing dispute for which we don't have all the facts, here are excerpts from the discussion Greg, Nick, Gene and I had on the 11 April episode discussing the abduction enigma in general.

As with UFOs and Roswell, no one case should be the focus of the discussion.

In my opinion, of course. :)

Or, as I just wrote at my blog (see: http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2010/04/kimball-redfern-bishop-on-alien.html):

There has been a lot of discussion in some quarters lately about one particular "alien abduction" case, and a dispute between a woman who uses the pseudonym "Emma Woods" and Dr. David Jacobs. I have stated my opinion on this case at the Paracast Forums, inasmuch as anyone can have an opinion about a case where there is an ongoing dispute, and not all of the information may be available.

But no aspect of a subject should ever be defined by one case - indeed, as I've argued here before, this is the mistake that UFO researchers have made over the past 30 years, by focusing so much attention and energy on the so-called Roswell Incident, to the exclusion of real discussion or investigation of other cases, or the consideration of other possible explanations for the UFO phenomenon than the extraterrestrial hypothesis (and the crashed flying saucers that seem to come with it).

The same is true of the "alien abduction" phenomenon. While the "Emma Woods" case certainly doesn't paint Jacobs in a good light, no matter what you think of "Emma Woods" (who seems far from perfect herself), problems with the "alien abduction" research methodology of people like Jacobs and Budd Hopkins, particularly the use of hypnosis, have been expressed by a number of people over the years, including Dr. Jacques Vallee and Kevin Randle. I've written about it myself over the years - see The Alien Abduction Cult from 2007 and The Abduction Phenomenon and Hypnosis from 2005, for example.

Accordingly, when Nick Redfern, Greg Bishop and I appeared on The Paracast with Gene Steinberg begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting Sunday, April 11th, and the subject of "alien abductions" came up within the context of a broader conversation about Mac Tonnies' last work, The Cryptoterrestrials, we focused on the subject in general, rather than one specific case.

The dispute between "Emma Woods" and David Jacobs is not going to be resolved on podcasts, or on message boards - although full credit is due to The Clueless One and Jeff Ritzmann at Paratopia for bringing it to the attention of a wider audience. While looking at individual cases and researchers definitely has merit, at the end of the day, one case comes, and one case goes; one researcher comes, and one researcher goes. UFO research did not come to a screeching halt when Bill Moore imploded, for example, or when Don Schmitt was revealed to be a liar. The discussion, however, should remain focused, as much as possible, even when discussing a particular case, on the general subject itself, and how any one case fits into the overall picture. In short, one always has to avoid missing the forest for any one tree.

With the "alien abduction" phenomenon, that means, as Nick, Greg and I make clear, that the mystery continues to intrigue. "Emma Woods" and David Jacobs are a not insignificant tree. But the forest remains.

Paul Kimball
 
Sorry, but something just crossed my mind after talking with a friend who is also into paranormal subjects. To be clear, I don't buy into this, but I am going to throw it out for group discussion:

What if Ms. Woods is not acting alone? More specifically, what if she is the front for some type of intelligence operation to discredit Dr. Jacobs and de facto the whole field of abduction research? What if there is more to abductions than most of us are willing to admit, and Dr. Jacobs is getting too close for comfort?

In favor of this theory are the following facts:
- no one knows Ms. Woods' real name, except perhaps Dr. Jacobs and maybe the Paratopia crew; this is even questionable
- she seems to be launching a widespread, long term and well thought through effort to discredit Dr. Jacobs
- if this controversy has been ongoing for a number of years, she seems to have made no apparent effort to seek remedy in a court of law or proper administrative body
- she evidently repeatedly resisted a visit to the U.S. for direct consultation with Dr. Jacobs, even before the controversy exploded
- she apparently lacks any means of financial support, beyond perhaps public welfare support

Against this theory is the following:
- evidently Ms. Woods came to Dr. Jacobs by referral from her (non-U.S. based) psychotherapist; if true, the intelligence agency had to 'turn her' after she started a dialogue with Dr. Jacobs
- she apparently has many legitimate signs of being a genuine abductee, although she could be fed these from the appropriate sources
- Ms. Woods may be more of a risk than the whole alleged scheme is worth; weigh the risk of disclosure of an intelligence scheme against benefits of undercutting Dr. Jacobs
- Dr. Jacobs, Budd Hopkins, et. al. really are on the margin of UFOlogy, are towards the ends of their careers, and this would have been done earlier if it was going to be done at all
- all the factors in favor of this theory above can be explained by other things, including the apparent intensity with which she is pursuing her campaign

I raise this in part because of a video I once saw which attempted to link the 'complex' crop circle phenomenon with an MI-5 sponsored group of individuals. In that instance, I asked the same question: why would fake complex crop circles be worth the trouble on the part of MI-5? The video, which I will try to locate, did a fairly good job of linking the crop circle group to MI-5 (apartments and studios paid for, historical personal linkages, etc.).

I also raise this because a number of level-headed people who listen to the Paracast have broached it with me, but it hasn't appeared on this Forum yet. Again, I personally don't think it is worth any intelligence agency's time and effort, but you at least have to ask yourself the question.


I respect your right to raise any issue in connection with this situation. However, I think that I should say something in response to this. I am not connected with any intelligence agencies whatsoever. Obviously, if I was, I would not admit it. However, to put it on record, it is simply not the case.

I do not know where you got the idea that I “repeatedly resisted a visit to the U.S. for direct consultation with Dr. Jacobs.” At no time did Dr. Jacobs ever ask me to visit the U.S., or to consult with him personally. I have serious physical health problems, and it would have been difficult for me to travel. Dr. Jacobs was well aware of that, and he never had any expectation that I would travel to visit him in person.

I provided Dr. Jacobs with copies of my passport and birth certificate, as well as other information about myself that he could check at any time. He had an open invitation from me to visit me in my country, and I told him that I would introduce him to family and friends, as well as to my former therapist, although he never took me up on my offer.

I will take this opportunity to clarify some other statements that have been made.

I did not ask Dr. Jacobs to conduct hypnosis with me. As I live in a different country to him it was not something that I ever considered. My association with him in the two and half years before he began conducting hypnosis with me was based on communication about my own research that I was conducting on my case, which he was assisting me with. In late 2004 he offered to conduct hypnosis with me by phone. During the period that he conducted hypnosis with me, he usually suggested the sessions to me.

I did not call Dr. Jacobs repeatedly during the entire time that I was his research subject. I called him only occasionally between hypnosis sessions. I called him often for a period of ten weeks at the end of the time that I was his research subject, when his psychological abuse of me had reduced me to an emotional wreck. I did this after he had told me that I could call him, although I realized that I was in a bad situation by then, and was not coping with it.

I did not record all the telephone calls between Dr. Jacobs and myself. I recorded our telephone calls in early-mid 2007, after it became apparent that we were going to have a serious disagreement about Elizabeth’s case. I told him that I would be taping the calls, and he agreed to this. He taped at least two of them himself. The tapes of the calls have not been heavily edited at all. They are the calls that I had with him.

When I first ended my work with Dr. Jacobs, I did nothing about it. He wanted to continue to conduct hypnosis with me (which is on Audio Clip 2 on my website) and he asked me to keep him up to date with my case. However, I simply wanted to get away from him and recover.

At the time that I decided to publish my own research on my website, I tried to come to an amicable agreement with him about how to talk about the events in public in a way we were both happy with. I persevered in trying to come to an agreement with him even after he threatened and bullied me. I published a diplomatic statement about the events on my website, and in response, Elizabeth published a character assassination of me on her blog site, which Dr. Jacobs supported. I also realized that he was defaming me extensively behind the scenes. At that point, I realized that I had to defend myself.

I subsequently was contacted through my website by the research subject who Dr. Jacobs took on after me, who had a similar experience to me. I realized that Dr. Jacobs had just gone on and hurt someone else after me.

Since that time, I have made complaints to Temple University, and to the Office for Human Research Protections. They were the appropriate channels to follow. I am still in that process.

I have made what occurred public because Dr. Jacobs is continuing to work with human research subjects, and if I do not speak out, he will continue to engage in extremely abusive practices unhindered. There are also wider issues involved with the research of “abduction” experiences using human research subjects that are in need of addressing.

I agreed to become Dr. Jacobs’ research subject because he presented himself to me as a professional academic researcher, and he led me to believe that I would be a research subject of Temple University, participating in scholarly research. I allowed myself to be hypnotized by him because of that. I had a right to expect that my protections as a research subject would be observed.

Instead, Dr. Jacobs engaged in psychologically abusive actions towards me while I was in a vulnerable state. This included him putting hypnotic suggestions in my mind that I had Multiple Personality Disorder, because he believed that he was under threat from "hybrids" who were communicating with him on instant messenger. He did not tell me beforehand that he was going to do it, and I did not give him permission to do it. No researcher has the right to do that to any research subject.

Dr. Jacobs has never addressed what he actually did to me. Instead, he has published a statement on his website that is a litany of lies in a concerted effort to falsely destroy my personal reputation, in an attempt to prevent people from listening to what I say about his misconduct towards me. He is now changing his statement radically as I rebut it. The changes that he has made are substantial changes of fact, but he has provided no explanation for why he has published completely different versions of the events that are mutually exclusive.

Dr. Jacobs' attempt at an "explanation" for why he put the hypnotic suggestions in my mind is dishonest. He tries to say that he put the suggestions in my mind in late 2006, after I had been practically broken down by his abuse. In fact, he put the suggestions in my mind months earlier, when he had begun having instant messaging conversations with "hybrids" from Elizabeth 's computer, and he did it because the "hybrids" had been aggressive to him. The fact that he has omitted all references to the "hybrid" IM in his statement, and has given such a dishonest "explanation" for his abusive behavior is further evidence of how unethical he is.

I was a research subject who was on the receiving end of Dr. Jacobs' abuse, and I am now trying to get something done about it. I believe in standing up for what is right, and I have a loving and supportive family and friends (including the research subject of Dr. Jacobs who contacted me), and a therapist, who have helped me to stand up to him. I am doing this both for my sake personally, and for the sake of other research subjects who, for one reason or another, cannot speak out.

Kim Carslberg, The Clueless One and Jeff Ritzmann recognized the important ethical issues involved, and had the courage and integrity to make it widely known in the UFO research field.
 
Emma, thanks for your detailed and cogent response. I suspect that you would guess, in this field more than others, people would look for a government or covert angle to make sense of what is happening. I personally doubt the CIA, MI-5 and most other agencies would find it worth the time, trouble and potential risks.
 
I respect your focus on whether Jacobs really believes in hybrids.

Well, I confess that is probably just my voyeurism and bad sense of humor showing through.

I do actually think the major issue that this whole business does bring painfully to the forefront is the validity of the methodology used in alien abduction investigation. I think that it has to be a discussion isolated from the Jacobs/Woods situation though and shouldn't revolve around these two personalities. It is bigger than that.
 
I have a few concerns here, and, folks, I'm trying to be as fair as possible to both sides.

1. I have reread Dr. Jacobs' response on his site and I do not recall any material change in his statement. If there is any, it's not major or readily apparent.

2. Emma: What you are doing is totally unproductive. If you have a legitimate beef against Dr. Jacobs, then file the appropriate legal action in a U.S. court or one in your native country and be done with it. At the same time, you clearly need to find a therapist who can help you get your life in order and move on.

In writing this, I am not saying whether this form of abduction research is right or wrong, except to repeat my concerns about trying to engage in telephone therapy, particularly with people one has never actually met. That is fraught with peril, as this episode indicates.

Since the use of hypnosis to recover hidden memories is extremely controversial, I feel it needs to be done only by professional therapists. Supposedly many abduction cases don't involve hidden memories, and thus should continue to be investigated through traditional means.

It appears that Hopkins and Jacobs are sincere and are doing this work with the best of intentions. In saying that, however, it's clear to me that there can be unfortunate, unanticipated consequences that won't help advance UFO research. This is surely an example.
 
1. I have reread Dr. Jacobs' response on his site and I do not recall any material change in his statement. If there is any, it's not major or readily apparent.

Hi Gene

The only change is "The Beginning" from the article on the ICAR site:
"Alice's therapist first wrote to me about his client in 2002. He was convinced that quite unusual things had happened to her and he was writing on her behalf because she wished to remain anonymous. She had wanted to get in touch with me or with Budd Hopkins to try to help her explain some of these events. A few months later she contacted both Budd Hopkins and me directly. After series of phone conversations with her in late 2004, she sent us large boxes of identical material on her case. There were over 700 pages covering in detail a vast amount of intimate information about herself and her unusual experiences..."

DJ reports he did not initially remember the detail that Alice's NZ "therapist" had originated the contact back in 2002, petitioned him to work with her and set everything up, so amended this small detail in the article when reminded.

Question for "Emma": are you taking legal action against your NZ "therapist" too? If not, why not? He/she got you into it, by the sound of it, and according to your testimony plastered all over the web for several months now must ultimately have a lot to answer for. He/she would be easy to sue, being a medical practitioner of some kind which DJ emphatically is not, and you don't have a jurisdiction issue with them being in NZ do you? Sorry if you've addressed this point already and I missed it because I know other people see it as a legitimate question and have asked it before.

Another forum contributor in this thread has suggested you may be a spook fronting a sophisticated INTEL psi-op to discredit abduction research, because the truth is being discovered about this phenomenon and you people chose to target the one researcher who is getting closest to it. To be fair said poster (Tom from HK) also presents strong counter-arguments why this might not be so, and appears not to hold to the view himself - just floating both sides of the idea. He's heard it, as have many of us, from those of a more suspicious nature or more versed in the ways of "countintelpro." This field is certainly replete with proven examples of this kind of spoiler such as the planting and promotion of the later-proved-fraudulent (though Stan Friedman I believe would still disagree) "MJ-12" documents. Speaking hypothetically, if this scenario were true then the "therapist" is probably part of the operation as well.
This would explain the choice of a remote location such as NZ to base the op, why you never mention the culpability of your NZ therapist in your alleged "abuse" and also the continued maintenance of an assumed ID behind which this defamation campaign can hide, wouldn't it?

Waddya say? You working for the CIA or what? (NB I personally don't think this likely so no need to go into your usual attack mode but the question is being asked by many so maybe you should think about why what you're doing makes people think this is possible).
 
Tom From Hong Kong has always been a respectful guy and I think he was just throwing out the possibility of an Emma-INTEL operation as a thought experiment of sorts, thus no offense, but I think we're having enough difficulty staying focused on the implications of the Emma-DJ case within the larger context of the Alien Abduction-Hypnotic Regression topic to add a conspiracy overlay---which honestly seems completely ridiculous and distracting to even refute.
 
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