Gaza Israel bombings

[flipper]

Uphill task for Israel's apologists
By Ramzy Baroud

After every bloody episode of violence perpetrated by Israel, media spin doctors are deployed with one grand mission: Absolve Israel of any responsibility in its acts of carnage.
These apologists not only demonize Palestinians, but also anyone who dares to take a stand on their behalf. The main staple of this Israeli strategy is blaming the victim.
There is nothing new in this tactic - this is how the so-called "Arab-Israeli conflict" has been presented in Western media.

The narrative is always much closer to that of Israeli official and media discourses than that of Palestinians' - despite the decades-long military occupation, successive wars, and countless massacres.

Since the Israeli siege on Gaza began, following the democratic elections that brought Hamas to power in January 2006, Israel has needed all of its hasbara savvy - alongside that of its backers in the West - to explain why a population was brutalized for making a democratic choice.

The sheer amount of deception involved in the cleverly knitted story, which among other ruses equates Hamas with al-Qaeda (as Israel once did between late Yasser Arafat and Hitler), has represented a new low - even by Israel's own standards.

The West's media demonized Hamas, the resistance and all the other "bad" Palestinians who voted for the movement, while intentionally ignoring the fascism that has taken over Israeli society.

For the "bad" Palestinian to exist - ie a "radical", "extremist" who is anti-peace - there always had to a "good" Palestinian, represented by Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas or any faction, person or leader willing to co-exist with the Israeli occupation.

The PA has gone even further cooperating with Israel to ensure the demise of the Palestinian "radicals", as in those who insist on resisting the occupation.

Thanks to the PA, the price for the Israeli occupation has never been so cheap. Despite repeated attempts at re-activating the so-called peace process, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has always found a way to torpedo such efforts, even those promoted by his closest allies in Washington.

"Peace" is a major risk for Netanyahu, because his government is sustained by Jewish nationalists and extremists who feel no particular need to end their colonization of the West Bank. Abbas had done a great deal to ensure that Israel feels no pressure to negotiate. Every attempt at resistance, even by standing peacefully with placards and banners in Ramallah's al-Manara Square was crushed; often brutally.

Gaza, however, remained an exception. Israel's brutality there has reached unprecedented levels, especially after Israel's Cast Lead Operation, which killed and wounded thousands. Many predicted that the crimes in Gaza would turn the tide against Israel, but they didn't. Israeli influence over the media was still tight enough that somehow they managed to, at least, neutralize the impact of Cast Lead. The advent of the Arab Spring and the devaluing of human life, as happened in Syria, Libya and Egypt, somehow buried the Israeli crimes in Gaza; however temporarily.

But Israel's latest war on Gaza in the summer of 2014 has amounted to a genocide. Israel's argument that it was "defending itself" was no longer sufficient. No amount of hasbara was enough to explain the burying alive of entire families, the summary execution of civilians, the pulverizing of entire neighborhoods, the shelling of fleeing children playing at a beach during a deceptive "lull," the destruction of dozens of mosques and churches, and the killing of more children sleeping in UN schools-turned temporary shelters.

It is particularly embarrassing for Israel, but also poignant, that the Gaza resistance, which stood alone against tens of thousands of well-armed invaders from tunnels, killed 64 Israelis. All but three were soldiers, mostly killed inside Gaza.

As the world was awakened to the level of devastation created by Israel in Gaza, many also became aware that such wrath is not independent from the fascism that has gripped Israeli society for years. In Israel, there is no longer room for dissent, and those in the highest positions of power, are the ones who openly and freely preach genocide.

In an excellent article in the American Conservative in August 2006, Scott McConnell, wrote, "All societies have their hate groups and extremists, but nowhere in the democratic world are they nearer to the center of power than Israel."

He elaborated, "In the 1980s Meir Kahane had a small following in Israel, but his pro-ethnic cleansing party was made illegal. Now Kahanists are in the center of the country's ruling ideology."

This was discussed in context of statements made by Moshe Feiglin, deputy speaker of the Knesset (parliament) and a "top player in Israel's ruling Likud Party". Feiglin called for Palestinians from Gaza to be resettled in concentration camps, and all of Hamas and its supporters to be "annihilated". Who can now, with a good conscience, protest those who infuse the Nazi analogy to what is happening in Palestine?

Meanwhile, in this age of social media, where mainstream news networks no longer have complete command over the narrative, no self-respecting intellectual, journalist, official or any citizen with a conscience can plead ignorance and stand on the fence of neutrality.

Gaza has indeed changed everything. Israel's criminality and fascism should no longer be open for vibrant media debates, but it must be acknowledged as an uncontested fact. Our language, as in our perception, must also change to accommodate this uncontested reality:

First - military occupation must be fully and unconditionally rejected. Palestinians cannot be judged for defending themselves and for resisting Israel to end its military occupation, end the siege and achieve freedom. Armed struggle is a right defended by international law for people living under foreign occupation.

Second - as anti-Apartheid icon, Desmond Tutu once said, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor." There can no longer be a place for neutrality when thousands of civilians are brutally murdered by an invading army. Neutrality in this context is outright intellectual cowardice, if not even support of Israel's crimes.

Third - taboos placed on analogies comparing the Israeli occupation to apartheid, and Nazi conduct should be dropped. While the racist notions that enabled apartheid are practiced daily by Israel, the analogy should go much further, considering that genocide has in fact been carried out in Gaza.

Fourth - There can be no mutual blame as a way to avoid placing full responsibility on the Israeli occupation and military. Palestinian resistance that blocked the way of the Merkava tanks in Jabaliya and Shejaiya is a heroic expression of the valor of the Palestinian people. Armed struggle in World War II continues to be admired throughout the world. Palestinians should not be made an exception.

Fifth - There can be no bad vs good Palestinians. There are those who resist, and those who collaborate with the enemy; those who pay the price, and those who benefit from the occupation.

Sixth - Israel is a fascist state. It controls the media, and cracks down on dissidents. It uses violence to achieve political ends, and doesn't shy away from genocide when it suits its interests. Reverting to "only democracy in the Middle East" statements is a sign of willful ignorance that can no longer be tolerated.

Seventh - The "Arab-Israeli conflict" is a misleading notion. The confines of misleading geography must end. Moreover, there is no conflict per se, but a military occupation and a state of one-sided war. Palestinians are fighting this alone, but are supported by people from around the world, from every color, race, religion and nationality.

Eighth - The Israeli siege on Gaza would have not been possible without full Egyptian support. Egypt is a culprit in the suffering of the Palestinians, and it must be recognized, condemned and held legally accountable for such a crime.

Ninth - Palestinian supporters should no longer view Palestinians with a sense of pity, but respect and admiration for their courage and heroism.

Tenth - And finally, to end the Israeli genocide and occupation, the wheel of continuous action must turn and keep on turning. Those who support Israel must be exposed, and those who facilitate the Israeli occupation and sustain its war machine are partakers in the war crimes committed daily in Gaza and the rest of Palestine. They must be boycotted. The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement must grow and serve as the main platform for international solidarity.

The time for clever words and no action is long gone, and those who remain "soft" on Israel, for whatever reason, have no place in what is becoming a global movement with uncompromising demands: end the occupation, punish its sustainers, halt ethnic cleaning and genocide, end the siege, and bring Israeli and other culprits to the international criminal court for their massive war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Ramzy Baroud is a PhD scholar in People's History at the University of Exeter. He is the Managing Editor of Middle East Eye. Baroud is an internationally syndicated columnist, a media consultant, an author and the founder of PalestineChronicle.com. His latest book is My Father Was a Freedom Fighter: Gaza's Untold Story (Pluto Press, London).

(Copyright 2014 Ramzy Baroud)
http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-01-180814.html

 

[mike]

Just as ISIS must be defeated militarily and destroyed as a terrorist army, so too must Hamas be responded to militarily and its rockets and tunnels destroyed.
It is widely, and in my view mistakenly, argued by many academics and diplomats that there can never be a military solution to terrorism in general or to the demands of Hamas in particular. This conventional wisdom ignores the lessons of history. Chamberlain thought there could be a diplomatic solution to Hitler's demands. Churchill disagreed. History proved Churchill correct. Nazi Fascists and Japanese militarists had to be defeated militarily before a diplomatic resolution could be achieved.
So too with ISIS and Hamas. They must first be defeated militarily and only then might they consider accepting reasonable diplomatic and political compromises. Another similarity between ISIS and Hamas is that if these terrorist groups were to lay down their arms, there might be peace, whereas if their enemies were to lay down their arms, there would be genocide.
A wonderful cartoon illustrates this: at one end of the table is Hamas demanding "death to all the Jews!" At the other end is Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu. In the middle sits the mediator, who turns to Netanyahu and asks: "Can't you at least come half way?"

ISIS is to America as Hamas is to Israel#

 

[mike]

Furthermore, although the word "occupation" has been tirelessly repeated in the media for a month, there is no "occupation" of Gaza. Every last Israeli left Gaza in 2005, in the hope that the Palestinians, reciprocally, would finally cease their self-destructive excursions into terror and instead use the opportunity to build a productive state. All restrictions on how goods could enter Gaza grew out of the concern, now seen as justified, that instead of building a productive state of its own, Hamas was using the material it imported to build a city of terror tunnels from which to attack Israel. What country could possibly permit that of a neighbor who keeps pledging to destroy it?

The Gaza War: Appearance vs. Reality

 

[mike]

Hamas killed hundreds of children in the construction of its extensive tunnel network, built partly to carry out attacks on children across the Gaza border in Israel. That report--confirmed by Hamas itself--emerged in 2012, not from the Israeli government, but the sympathetic Journal of Palestine Studies, in an article that otherwise celebrated the secret tunnel system

Hamas is not only using child labor, but likely child slavery, in building its terror tunnel network. While the world worries obsessively over the child casualties of Israeli attacks on Hamas targets in Gaza, it has ignored Hamas's deliberate killing of hundreds of Palestinian children, over the objections of the local populace.
The knowledge that Hamas used children to dig tunnels for smuggling and terror up to 25 meters below ground changes the moral calculation of the war significantly. Not only does Hamas show extreme indifference to the lives of Palestinian children by using them as human shields, placing rockets in UN schools and the like, but it actively destroys those lives by sending Palestinian children to die underground in 19th century conditions.

Blog: Children died building terror tunnels for Hamas

Again wheres the outrage, or is that reserved only for deaths caused by Israel ?

FIREWALL: The Case For Israel | The Hayride

 

[kanakaris]

Hamas killed hundreds of children in the construction of its extensive tunnel network, built partly to carry out attacks on children across the Gaza border in Israel. That report--confirmed by Hamas itself--emerged in 2012, not from the Israeli government, but the sympathetic Journal of Palestine Studies, in an article that otherwise celebrated the secret tunnel system

Hamas is not only using child labor, but likely child slavery, in building its terror tunnel network. While the world worries obsessively over the child casualties of Israeli attacks on Hamas targets in Gaza, it has ignored Hamas's deliberate killing of hundreds of Palestinian children, over the objections of the local populace.
The knowledge that Hamas used children to dig tunnels for smuggling and terror up to 25 meters below ground changes the moral calculation of the war significantly. Not only does Hamas show extreme indifference to the lives of Palestinian children by using them as human shields, placing rockets in UN schools and the like, but it actively destroys those lives by sending Palestinian children to die underground in 19th century conditions.

Blog: Children died building terror tunnels for Hamas

Again wheres the outrage, or is that reserved only for deaths caused by Israel ?

FIREWALL: The Case For Israel | The Hayride

And what is the source of this ?Breitbart ?What next , AIPAC ?

 

[flipper]

Just as ISIS must be defeated militarily and destroyed as a terrorist army, so too must Hamas be responded to militarily and its rockets and tunnels destroyed.
It is widely, and in my view mistakenly, argued by many academics and diplomats that there can never be a military solution to terrorism in general or to the demands of Hamas in particular. This conventional wisdom ignores the lessons of history. Chamberlain thought there could be a diplomatic solution to Hitler's demands. Churchill disagreed. History proved Churchill correct. Nazi Fascists and Japanese militarists had to be defeated militarily before a diplomatic resolution could be achieved.
So too with ISIS and Hamas. They must first be defeated militarily and only then might they consider accepting reasonable diplomatic and political compromises. Another similarity between ISIS and Hamas is that if these terrorist groups were to lay down their arms, there might be peace, whereas if their enemies were to lay down their arms, there would be genocide.
A wonderful cartoon illustrates this: at one end of the table is Hamas demanding "death to all the Jews!" At the other end is Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu. In the middle sits the mediator, who turns to Netanyahu and asks: "Can't you at least come half way?"

ISIS is to America as Hamas is to Israel#

If I understand what you correctly. Hamas is Hitler. ISIS is Japan. Netanyahu is Churchill. Obama is Chamberlain. The solution therefore is to firebomb all cities in Gaza and then invade with the all the freedom loving armies of the world. The leadership of Hamas and ISIS will be put on trial for war crimes. As for ISIS they should have two hydrogen bombs dropped on them, because one will not be enough. The world could then live in peace.

 

[flipper]

Again wheres the outrage, or is that reserved only for deaths caused by Israel ?

This is a very good question Mike. Why are there no demonstrations against Hamas? Why does no one want to boycott goods from Gaza (apart from Israel.) If I understand what you are saying, apart from our political leaders, there is no support for Israel. Why is that? Very good questions. I have my own answers and I am looking forward to hearing yours.

 

[kanakaris]

Hamas killed hundreds of children in the construction of its extensive tunnel network, built partly to carry out attacks on children across the Gaza border in Israel. That report--confirmed by Hamas itself--emerged in 2012, not from the Israeli government, but the sympathetic Journal of Palestine Studies, in an article that otherwise celebrated the secret tunnel system

Hamas is not only using child labor, but likely child slavery, in building its terror tunnel network. While the world worries obsessively over the child casualties of Israeli attacks on Hamas targets in Gaza, it has ignored Hamas's deliberate killing of hundreds of Palestinian children, over the objections of the local populace.
The knowledge that Hamas used children to dig tunnels for smuggling and terror up to 25 meters below ground changes the moral calculation of the war significantly. Not only does Hamas show extreme indifference to the lives of Palestinian children by using them as human shields, placing rockets in UN schools and the like, but it actively destroys those lives by sending Palestinian children to die underground in 19th century conditions.

Blog: Children died building terror tunnels for Hamas

Again wheres the outrage, or is that reserved only for deaths caused by Israel ?

FIREWALL: The Case For Israel | The Hayride

Were Gaza tunnels built to harm Israeli civilians? | +972 Magazine

 

[RenaissanceLady]

This is a very good question Mike. Why are there no demonstrations against Hamas? Why does no one want to boycott goods from Gaza (apart from Israel.) If I understand what you are saying, apart from our political leaders, there is no support for Israel. Why is that? Very good questions. I have my own answers and I am looking forward to hearing yours.

Why is there "no support for Israel?"

• Do you mean other than the Muslim Berbers, Muslim Druze, Muslim Bedouins, Circassians, and other Israeli Arabs who fight within and alongside the IDF because they know their own survival depends upon Israel's survival?
• Do you mean other than Muslim Kurds, who not only respect Israel's right to exist but are also desperately fighting for a homeland of their own so they will not be oppressed or slaughtered by other Muslim groups? (It should also be noted that Iraqi Kurdistan has been seen as a refuge for the Shabaki people, who themselves are feeling Islamic tyranny during the ISIL offensive.)
• Do you mean other than the 12 current Muslim members of the Knesset, many if not most of whom would not be given any voice in any other Muslim country?
• Do you mean other than Muslim LGBTs who have fled to Israel because it is the ONLY Middle Eastern country which not only tolerates homosexuals, but also keeps them from being tortured and killed by other Muslim governments and individuals. Aswat, a Palestinian-Lesbian support group, has its headquarters in Israel. See if you can figure out why...
• Do you mean other than the governments of Jordan and Egypt, both of whom will become permanently destabilized if Islamic Extremists gain a stronger foothold in that region. Egypt and Israel routinely cooperate in terms of security, as neither side wants to be subjected to an Islamic dictatorship.

This shouldn't come as a surprise to you, but those Muslim groups that face systematic oppression or slaughter by other Muslim groups overwhelmingly support Israel, some of whom you can see listed above. It also shouldn't come as a surprise, but certain Middle Eastern countries that are struggling with their own fledgling democracies also tend to side with Israel when extremist groups wish to destroy those democracies. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the Single Biggest Threat to Muslims in the Middle East are from other Muslims in the Middle East. For this reason -- though contrary to to the myths being purported on this thread -- there is no shortage of Muslim support for Israel.

The following account is from a Muslim man fighting in the IDF.
“One day, a young Arab woman arrived at the checkpoint with a knife and tried to stab a soldier. When I was called to the scene she burst into tears and showed me her body. It was covered with black and blue marks. I understood that she had been severely beaten at home for having soiled the family’s honor and that she didn’t really want to kill a soldier. It was just her way of getting away from her family. She preferred to be in an Israeli jail rather than going back home, possibly to her death.”

Read that again, I'll wait and catch you on the next paragraph.

I also hope you'll take the time to read the entire interview, as it gives a good glimpse -- from the eyes of a Muslim -- into why many of them are also Zionists.


So much for the bullshit comparing Hitler's genocide to Israel's wanting to protect itself and other Muslims from oppression, torture and slaughter. Muslims in Israel tend to fare better than in most Muslim countries in the world, especially if they are LGBT, part of a smaller Muslim ethnicity, or female. (You might want to Google "Irshad Manji" for a very unique view regarding why that particular Muslim lesbian journalist is also a Zionist. It will put to rest some of the absurd arguments coming from people on this thread who believe they are suddenly experts on the situation in the Middle East.)

Once upon a time when I was a much younger, I only heard the kind of hate and stupidity against Jews and Israel coming from the most rabidly right-wing among us. Now, it's almost exclusively coming from my fellow liberals, based on a pernicious anti-Semitism that seems to think the world would be a better place if only Jews didn't have any right to self-determination. Headlines in The Guardian UK scream, "Antisemitism on rise across Europe 'in worst time since the Nazis'".

Let me ask you, where would you like Jews to live? Should they just accept their very existence means they should be routinely oppressed or killed in very places that have always oppressed and killed them in real genocides? It would appear most of the people on this thread don't want them to live in Israel, and probably don't want them living anywhere else. After painfully reading this thread (and losing all respect for many of the people posting here), I can only conclude that they simply want Jews to be dead -- at which point we'll likely see peace in the Middle East for at least a few minutes -- until the headlines are screaming again about certain Muslim groups slaughtering all other Muslim groups.

One final note: I have yet to hear a single peep coming from anyone, liberal or conservative, about how Pakistan was carved out of India so the Muslims there could have their own homeland. This led to the systematic removal and slaughter of several hundred thousand to a few million people, Hindus being the primary target in that nation's birth. To date, Hindus make up only 1.6% of Pakitan's population, which is a number that is still declining due to being actively persecuted. (To date, there are virtually no Jews in Pakistan, in spite of having a historical presence there. They had to flee for their lives, mostly to Israel.) Pakistan has since been marred by genocide against other Pakistani Muslims, killing an estimated 300,000 to 3 million of its own people, causing east Pakistan to form its own country now known as Bangladesh. In contrast, the Muslims who stayed in India have been allowed to flourish, making up 14.6% of that country's population, twelve of them even becoming among modern India's presidents. India now has more Muslims than Pakistan. Meanwhile, Israel not only has 12 Muslims in its government, Arab-Israelis make up 20.7% of that country's population.

Food for thought.

 

[mike]

^

 

[Tyger]

Why is there "no support for Israel?"

[...]

Read that again, I'll wait and catch you on the next paragraph.

I also hope you'll take the time to read the entire interview, as it gives a good glimpse -- from the eyes of a Muslim -- into why many of them are also Zionists.

I think the question posed: Why is there no support for Israel? - was a bit more nuanced, regarding why there is a growing outcry against Israel's actions. Of course there are supporters - it is a complicated world. No one debates that. It is also true that religious fundamentalism in all its guises is not a pleasant prospect under which to live. I don't think anyone has argued that it is.

So much for the bullshit comparing Hitler's genocide to Israel's wanting to protect itself and other Muslims from oppression, torture and slaughter.

You may think it's BS but the comparison was made by holocaust survivors, daring to speak out with their last fading breath. They are worth listening to.

Muslims in Israel tend to fare better than in most Muslim countries in the world, especially if they are LGBT, part of a smaller Muslim ethnicity, or female. (You might want to Google "Irshad Manji" for a very unique view regarding why that particular Muslim lesbian journalist is also a Zionist. It will put to rest some of the absurd arguments coming from people on this thread who believe they are suddenly experts on the situation in the Middle East.)

Ouch! Nasty. What's this about? This is a conversation. We are having a conversation. If you don't want to engage with people who are 'non-experts' why jump in? Is anyone on this chat site an 'expert' - really? Maybe some are more well read than others on certain topics - but an 'expert'? It's an informal chat site.

Once upon a time when I was a much younger, I only heard the kind of hate and stupidity against Jews and Israel coming from the most rabidly right-wing among us.

There has been no 'hate and stupidity against Jews' on this thread. There has only been criticism of Israel's actions as a political state. The two are different.

Now, it's almost exclusively coming from my fellow liberals, based on a pernicious anti-Semitism that seems to think the world would be a better place if only Jews didn't have any right to self-determination.

You have to tease out the religiosity woven through your sentence. Arguing self-determination for Jews is the same as arguing self-determination for Mulims, or Christians, or Buddhists, or Hindus. Does this make sense? There has always been the argument - made by Noam Chomsky in regards Israel - that any state based on a religion cannot be a democracy.

Is self-determination the correct term to use here when talking politics? Religions deserve protection in a democracy. I don't think you mean Jews - but Israelis have the right to self-determination as a sovereign state - be they of whatever religion, Jew or Muslim.

Headlines in The Guardian UK scream, "Antisemitism on rise across Europe 'in worst time since the Nazis'"

Troubling to be sure - and that is what will happen: genuine political differences will get obliterated by all the crazies coming out of the woodwork.

Let me ask you, where would you like Jews to live?

Everywhere.

Should they just accept their very existence means they should be routinely oppressed or killed in very places that have always oppressed and killed them in real genocides?

No.

It would appear most of the people on this thread don't want them to live in Israel, and probably don't want them living anywhere else.

Not true - your fears/phantoms are waving in front of your eyes. Nothing of the kind has been said here on this thread.

The creation of Israel was a bad idea. The Jews can live there - they were living there before Israel was a state. It's the creation of Israel that led to the 'Palestinian Problem' - the refugees. That situation is making the world unsafe. It needs to be re-thought. That is what I have said, anyway.

No one on this thread has said they "don't want [Jews] living anywhere else". You are taking this too far afield in your thinking.

After painfully reading this thread (and losing all respect for many of the people posting here)

Well, that's sad. Are all your friends required to think in lock-step with you on all topics?

I can only conclude that they simply want Jews to be dead

This is far from being merely inflammatory language, it is patently absurd. Why would you conclude such a thing? Questioning Israel's political and military actions becomes that kind of drama? No one wants anyone dead - that's the point. No one wants Gazans dead either.

-- at which point we'll likely see peace in the Middle East for at least a few minutes -- until the headlines are screaming again about certain Muslim groups slaughtering all other Muslim groups.

You betray your own anti-semitism with this remark.

No one here criticizing Israel has been comfortable with any religion-bashing - be it Jewish-bashing or Muslim-bashing. What is curious is that those who cannot abide the political criticisms of Israel being voiced are doing religion-bashing on this thread. There is not a little irony in all that.

One final note: I have yet to hear a single peep coming from anyone, liberal or conservative, about how Pakistan was carved out of India so the Muslims there could have their own homeland.

I think you will - where that is being discussed. It's not being discussed here. This is an intellectually dishonest debate tactic. You're 'changing the subject'. That tactic has been riddled through this thread: 'What about this' and 'what about that over here'. No one has risen to the bait - and I think that annoys those trying to divert the attention away from Israel.

Edit: You wrote: "I have yet to hear a single peep coming from anyone, liberal or conservative." Again, positing the identities of anonymous posters on a chat site is a fruitless task. No one here is a stand-in for anyone else's bugaboos. You may want that dialog - and if so, go in search of some "liberal or conservative" that so identifies themself to have that conversation - but don't insist that anyone take up that mantle because you insist.

Food for thought.

That we have problems the world over with ancient ethnicities converging on ancient religious minorities/majorities overlaid with racial prejudices - for sure. Still doesn't solve the tensions in the Middle East.

 

[mike]

Its time the world woke up to Islam, It is incompatible with our western way of life.

Where we seperate church and state, giving our citizens the freedom to choose, including the right to have no religion.
Islam is a system where the church and state are one entity, Its not just about your spiritual guidance, it dictates every aspect of your life.

Trying to seperate IS (Islamic state) from the religion is just plain blind, They dont........

“I swear to Allah we will divide America in two,” one child, who looked no older than 12, declared to VICE Media in an angry rant, speaking as if he was already a member of the terror group. “And we’ll destroy the enemies of the religion all of them, all who fight the Islamic State.”

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/08/12/isis-members-threaten-to-attack-america/#ixzz3B4ebHBWc

In a previous installment of VICE Media’s video report from Raqqa, IS spokesman Abu Mosa vowed to take the White House.

We will humiliate [the Americans] everywhere, God willing, and we will raise the flag of Allah in the White House,” he said

This is the same attitude they have towards Israel, You wont have any hesitation defending yourselves against this backward ideology, but object to Israel doing it. Theres a word for that


Watch this

You cannot seperate this from Islam, they sure as hell dont.

They are indeed a cancer on the 21st century, the only real question is do we deal with them now, or later when they are even stronger......

 

[mike]

They’re beyond just a terrorist group. They marry ideology, a strategic and tactical military prowess. They are tremendously well funded. Oh, this is beyond anything that we’ve seen.”
“We must prepare for everything,” Hagal continued. “And the only way you do that is you take a cold, steely, hard look at it and get ready.”
Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, added that if ISIS were to achieve its stated vision of creating a new Islamic caliphate, “it would fundamentally alter the face of the Middle East” and create a clear threat to the region as well as the West.


There is just no avoiding the fact that its an Islamic ideology thats driving this, and the proof is the british, australian indonesian muslims who are flocking to the banner.
For them its all about Islam, not any personal greivance.

They see the chance to make happen Islams vision of total world domination, its in their book this is what allah commands them to do

Sura 61:9
61:9 He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islamic monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and His Messenger Muhammad)

Sura 48:28

48:28 He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), that He may make it (Islam) superior to all religions. And All-Sufficient is Allah as a Witness


Western civilization and Christianity, though not identical, create the negation in premise two, the not-B. Also, Hindus in northern India, bordering on Pakistan, and animists and Christians in Africa put up a roadblock against Islam, so they are being attacked and killed. Early Islam speaks almost exclusively of Christianity as the major roadblock to world submission and domination, and it is this widespread religion that Muhammad confronts in his later unprovoked northern military campaigns.
Therefore, for true Muslims, the West and Christianity must be brought down together. Earliest Islam inspires terrorists and extremists to triumph over the "Great Satan" and the "Abode of Unbelievers" in their false religion. They are inspired to effectuate the ultimate victory for Islam, the true religion, which includes waging jihad or qital in the example of their prophet.

The Ultimate Goal of Islam: World Domination

 

[mike]

Hagel is right, this situation is beyond anything weve seen before, i truly believe this is a tipping point for civilisation. The internet itself is the game changer

There hasn’t ever been such a combination of the modern media techniques and radical military might, says Prof Robertson.
“You have never had mass communications technology where an ideology can be spread with appalling videos and high-quality recruitment media where you can globalise your struggle and group identity,” he told VoR.
Being part of an intensely bonded group against an external threat who feel dominant over the enemy and righteous – that has a strong drug-like effect on the brain of young men, which distorts their thinking and makes them feel “totally confident, aggressive optimistic that they can rule the world and that their caliphate can spread”, says Prof Robertoson

Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/uk/news/2014_08_21/Islamic-State-psychology-Group-values-trump-individual-conscience-5890/

 

[flipper]

I think the question posed: Why is there no support for Israel? - was a bit more nuanced, regarding why there is a growing outcry against Israel's actions. Of course there are supporters - it is a complicated world. No one debates that. It is also true that religious fundamentalism in all its guises is not a pleasant prospect under which to live. I don;t think anyone has argued that it is.



You may think it's BS but the comparison was made by holocaust survivors, daring to speak out with their last fading breath. They are worth listening to.



Ouch! Nasty. What's this about? This is a conversation. We are having a conversation. If you don't want to engage with people who are 'non-experts' why jump in? Is anyone on this chat site an 'expert' - really? Maybe some are more well read than others on certain topics - but an 'expert'? It's an informal chat site.



There has been no 'hate and stupidity against Jews' on this thread. There has only been criticism of Israel's actions as a political state. The two are different.



You have to tease out the religiosity woven through your sentence. Arguing self-determination for Jews is the same as arguing self-determination for Mulims, or Christians, or Buddhists, or Hindus. Does this make sense? There has always been the argument - made by Noam Chomsky in regards Israel - that any state based on a religion cannot be a democracy.

Is self-determination the correct term to use here when talking politics? Religions deserve protection in a democracy. I don't think you mean Jews - but Israelis have the right to self-determination as a sovereign state - be they of whatever religion, Jew or Muslim.



Troubling to be sure - and that is what will happen: genuine political differences will get obliterated by all the crazies coming out of the woodwork.



Everywhere.



No.



The creation of Israel was a bad idea. The Jews can live there - they were living there before Israel was a state. It's the creation of Israel that led to the 'Palestinian Problem' - the refugees. That situation is making the world unsafe. It needs to be re-thought. That is what I have said.

No one on this thread has said they "don't want [Jews] living anywhere else". You are taking this too far afield in your thinking.



Well, that's sad. Are all your friends required to think in lock-step with you on all topics?



This is far from being merely inflammatory language, it is patently absurd. Why would you conclude such a thing? Questioning Israelis political and military actions becomes that kind of drama? No one wants anyone dead - that's the point. No one wants Gazans dead either.



You betray your own anti-semitism with this remark.



I think you will - where that is being discussed. It's not being discussed here. This is an intellectually dishonest debate tactic. You're 'changing the subject'. That tactic has been riddled through this thread: 'What about this' and 'what about that over here'. No one has risen to the bait - and I think that annoys.

Edit: You wrote: "I have yet to hear a single peep coming from anyone, liberal or conservative." Again, positing the identities of anonymous posters on a chat site is a fruitless task. No one here is a stand-in for anyone else's bugaboos. You may want that dialog - go in search of some "liberal or conservative" to have that conversation - but don;t insist that anyone take up that mantle because you insist.



That we have problems the world over with ancient ethnicities converging on ancient religious minorities/majorities overlaid with racial prejudices - for sure. Still doesn't solve the tensions in the Middle East.

Well done Tyger. I think your reply was to the point and said with a great deal of respect. Very well done.

 

[michaelangel1453]

Another hurrah to Mike. I've been watching this thread, and am glad to see how those who derided me are having their clocks cleaned. I came on to offer balance some time ago, and thanks again, Mike, for your stunning support of Israel's right to defend itself vigorously.

And Renaissance Lady, superbly expressed points. Just superb, and Tyger's squeals in protest show his desperation. He and a few others have been expressing in my reading of their posts a real hatred that they try to sometimes be cute and coy about, but Mike and Renaissance Lady have called it what it is, whine and squeak though Tyger does.

I call on Tyger to read my posts, numbers 340 and 378, and respond to those quotes from the Red Ice interview Flipper posted and which he "liked." You, Tyger, are always so condescending with your insistence to those who defend Israel's right to survival to read your own links. So you must have listened to that interview and agreed to those quotes in it, right, so much so you coyly "liked" it?

Read posts 340 and 378.

 

[mike]

Read the subtitles, they are teaching their kids that they will rule the world

This isnt terrorism , its good old fasioned indoctrination

 

[mike]

This is why palestinian kids are being killed

Using your children like this is incompatible with our western way of life.

 

[Tyger]

Well done Tyger. I think your reply was to the point and said with a great deal of respect. Very well done.

Thank you, flipper. Good to have that feedback.

But you know, reading these texts by those one assumes are adults, is disheartening. In my daily round I have to deal with far more hostility for far more legitimate reasons. In a way my life is on the line every day in my work given the population I serve. Everyone has their story and their rationales to hate - to be upset - to threaten and get pay-back. And those young people (and not so young) learn to behave and react the way they do from such as we see here. They are learning their 'insanity' in countless ways.

Other choices have to be made.

 

[mike]

A must watch it highlights the very problem some here in this thread have

Watch this and WAKE UP, you are the enemy. Make no mistake