Gaza Israel bombings

[Burnt State]

I wonder why it is that so few nations globally support the Palestinian problem? Seems to me that they also need a safe, secured homeland with an opportunity to build a real economy with access to traditional lands. While many are indignant, no one's putting up serious development cash or real political support for them. Why do so many politicians make a point of saying, "we are friends of Israel" but no one makes public displays of their friendship with Palestinians. Doesn't anyone even know who started up terrorism in the middle east or introduced things like car bombings to secure territory, as it sure wasn't Palestine that did that? History is an absent minded fool who makes smiles for necessary allies. Though I am entirely confused as to just what it is that all these western politicians are busy smiling at when they see the wreckage their friends make out of schools and hospitals.

 

[flipper]

What is also getting 'jammed' in the news reporting is that there are considerable demonstrations in Israel against this war happening right now - yet what got reported yesterday was that the Israelis in an overwhelming majority support the war. Not the case - or I don't believe that spin. Israel as a country has a very changed demographic from the 1950's and 1960's. There are a lot of non-Jews and a generation of Israelis who do not think like their great-grandparents. Were Israel a truly democratic country I question whether we would see the religiously driven policies we see.

Israel was allowed to happen because of European guilt over the fact that western nations refused Jewish refugees from the Nazis. Giving the Jews a 'homeland' - at the expense of the Palestinians - was a cheap, illegal and racist act. It was a dirty quick-fix to assuage guilt over the view that there is 'a Jewish problem'. The Palestinians have had to pay the price for Western guilt for their complicity in thinking that there is a 'Jewish problem' for the past 60+ years.

If Israel were a truly democratic nation "Arab" Palestinians would be the majority, and not a the land now called Israel would not be a Jewish state.

 

[flipper]

I wonder why it is that so few nations globally support the Palestinian problem? Seems to me that they also need a safe, secured homeland with an opportunity to build a real economy with access to traditional lands. While many are indignant, no one's putting up serious development cash or real political support for them. Why do so many politicians make a point of saying, "we are friends of Israel" but no one makes public displays of their friendship with Palestinians. Doesn't anyone even know who started up terrorism in the middle east or introduced things like car bombings to secure territory, as it sure wasn't Palestine that did that? History is an absent minded fool who makes smiles for necessary allies. Though I am entirely confused as to just what it is that all these western politicians are busy smiling at when they see the wreckage their friends make out of schools and hospitals.

Excellent questions.

 

[Tyger]

I wonder why it is that so few nations globally support the Palestinian problem? Seems to me that they also need a safe, secured homeland with an opportunity to build a real economy with access to traditional lands.

Well, it's pretty simple. The Palestinians had a homeland - but they were forced out when Israel was created. Fundamentally they do not accept that the UN had the right to force them out and create a state that excluded them on the very land that was theirs to begin with. They want their land back - and Israel darn well knows that. This view, say the Israelis, is a threat to their existence. Well, yeah, it is. No mystery there But instead of saying that there is a fundamental injustice that has taken place here and lets re-think this - the Israelis hunkered down and 'defended' themselves. Foremost they have thrown the anti-semitism charge at anyone who would dare question Israel's right to exist. (That always been a bogus argument because questioning Israel's actions is not about religion but about politics - but the arguments have been successfully conflated).

What are other countries to do? They voted in the UN for this 'solution' of 'the Jewish problem' - this 'pay off' to the Jews for western guilt when Jews were refused asylum. From the get-go it was a mistake - but how do you pull back? Just wait it out - hope there will be a sea-change with the Palestinians. There never was - and some of the Arab countries were none too happy with the land-grab the UN engaged in for another group.

So there it sits festering - 3 to 4 generations later. Its not going to get better - Israel is ensuring that. What has to happen is the UN says 'Enough!', and the US says 'Enough!' and then the rest will follow. Its gone on for too long - it needs to end - and in fairness to Hamas, that is their point. It was the point of the Jewish terrorists in the 1940's as well - though they were not fighting oppression as are the Palestinians. Their intention is to make it so bad that that the international community that counts will rise up and put a stop to Israel. Will that happen? A long shot.

 

[Tyger]

If Israel were a truly democratic nation "Arab" Palestinians would be the majority, and not a the land now called Israel would not be a Jewish state.

Exactly. And with the changed viewpoint of Israel's younger generations - that is where the hope lies. But in the meantime
1.6 million Palestinians are being pummeled into extinction - or its being attempted.

The solution is - based on what I have read and heard - the creation of a new state. Israel cannot continue as a religious state. Call the new state Israel or Palestine, or Palestine-Israel, whatever, a new secular state needs to be created - what should have been there from the very beginning. The UN needs to step up and put a halt to this travesty, and the US needs to support the UN action. All others will follow.

 

[DaveM]

I wonder why it is that so few nations globally support the Palestinian problem? Seems to me that they also need a safe, secured homeland with an opportunity to build a real economy with access to traditional lands. While many are indignant, no one's putting up serious development cash or real political support for them. Why do so many politicians make a point of saying, "we are friends of Israel" but no one makes public displays of their friendship with Palestinians. Doesn't anyone even know who started up terrorism in the middle east or introduced things like car bombings to secure territory, as it sure wasn't Palestine that did that? History is an absent minded fool who makes smiles for necessary allies. Though I am entirely confused as to just what it is that all these western politicians are busy smiling at when they see the wreckage their friends make out of schools and hospitals.

It's called following the money. Go and look up how much money is sent to American politicians by AIPAC. You can rest assured the Palestinian people aren't lining any US politician's pockets. That is why you don't have any dissenting voices about bombing Gaza into rubble.

Unfortunately the Arab community hasn't made a peep over the destruction of Gaza. What does that tell you?

 

[michaelangel1453]

Are you saying, Tyger, that Israel has no right to exist?

 

[DissectionStalker]

Mutual shared violence only emerges into a Police State mentality and the loss of Human rights for everyone in opposition. Since Israel is in control of its borders, then it should not strike back in ways that kill the innocent bystanders. Israel should prosecute the accused as criminals, and then carry out the lawful punishment for those found guilty. That is the responsibility of a wise and mature Nation to be exemplary and not put blood on its own hands for personal reactionary retribution and vengeance.

Weaponized drone technology and other collateral damage weapons should never be used as counter attacks against acts of terrorism. If Israel wants to use human assassination squads to kill the guilty terrorists, then it will have to risk the death of its own assassins in doing this. But I do not condone that kind of State sponsored violence, since it is impossible to prevent innocent people from being killed too.

After 911 the USA was exposed by being guilty of committing torture, such as water boarding, and President Obama can kill anyone, including Americans, on planet Earth by direct order if he signs "the paperwork" deeming that person(s) a threat and danger to National Security.

Of course, diplomats and heads of state are exempt.

Geesh, this is what the world has come to after 911...

It all comes down to basic Human rights that are protected beyond the Nation State. America and Israel prove the need for International Planet Earth Human Rights that are protected beyond the Nation State. There are many other nations that violate basic Human rights too, far more often too, but I use the USA and Israel as proper examples considering this thread topic and the close relationship between these two nations.

 

[Burnt State]

Unfortunately the Arab community hasn't made a peep over the destruction of Gaza. What does that tell you?

It tells me that the poor and the destitute will always get screwed over, even by their neighbours.

 

[michaelangel1453]

"...the very land that was theirs to begin with."

"...the Israelis hunkered down and 'defended' themselves."

"...they have thrown the antisemitism charge at anyone who would dare question Israel's right to exist."

"...this 'solution' of 'the Jewish problem'-...payoff to the Jews..."

"It's not going to get better-Israel is ensuring that."

"What has to happen is the UN says 'Enough!', and the US says 'Enough!'"

"...and then the rest will follow."

"It's gone on for too long."

"...it needs to end."

"...that is their (Hamas's) point."

"...the international community that counts will rise up and put a stop to Israel."

"The solution is...the creation of a new state. Israel cannot continue as a religious state."

Are you saying Israel has no right to exist?

 

[DissectionStalker]

Since the politicians and military can't stop the revenge killing and collateral damage, I think there should be an Independent Court of Justice set-up to convict the terrorists, AND, equally important, prosecute anyone (including political and military officials) that sanctions and commits revenge killings and collateral damage. There needs to be an Independent Court of Justice to mediate and prosecute these terrorists attacks, and, most importantly, prevent more innocent people on both sides from being killed.

 

[Tyger]

LINK: Watch Russell Brand Expose The Fox News Propaganda Machine | Live Free, Live Natural

Text: "Actor and activist Russell Brand is at it again and this time he has set his sights on conservative radio host and Fox News pundit Sean Hannity. Brand, who has recently started calling out Fox News for their blatant use of incendiary intimidation tactics, has once again taken up linguistic arms on his YouTube show The Trews.

Russell tackles the absurd bias shown by Fox over the recent conflict in Gaza and points out how repeated yelling doesn’t substitute for the truth. In this recent episode of The Trews, Brand shatters the all too familiar pro-Israeli bias that is being perpetuated by most of the English speaking world’s corporate media. While we here at Live Free Live Natural are sympathetic to both sides of this horrible conflict, only one side is being shown on TV, while the other side is being show on the internet. We think Russell Brand breaks it down perfectly.

And it’s not just the “conservative” media that is pushing this astonishingly pro-war stance on the Israeli-Hamas conflict. Bob Schieffer of CBS, often considered a “liberal” media outlet, made many of the same dehumanizing claims about the Palestinian people on his show Face the Nation the other night.

We agree with Russell that dehumanizing people is not a proper rationale for accepting the deaths of civilians as a legitimate function of war. This is also not a constructive way to solve this crisis. Watch the breakdown below:"

 

[Tyger]

Mr Hitchens makes excellent points: "Israel exists and much be dealt with. But it's not the first time that a nation has been created that should not have been. Many states are founded on injustices and foolishness and bad ideas - doesn't mean that anyone can just come and evict them and destroy them. But it's a messianic, superstitious, nationalistic idea and a waste of Judaism. It guaranteed a quarrel with the Arabs because it said we are going to take away what is most precious to you, we are going to talk away your land. We must address the 'original sin', the original misconception. It's a matter of principle. If Jews born in Brooklyn have a right to a state in Palestine, then Palestinians born in Jerusalem have a right to a state in Palestine. Anyone who doesn't believe that are suspect."

Christopher Hitchens on Israel and Zionism

TEXT: "They hate our policies, not our freedom' 'Muslims do not hate our freedom, but rather they hate our policies [the Pentagon report says, released in 2004]. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the long-standing, even increasing, support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and the Gulf states. Thus, when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy.'

And it is, neither USA nor Israel (and of course many others) are friends to democracy when it doesn't benefit them. Look past the rhetoric, skip the marketing and study these things deeper. If anyone actually reads this far then I'd also recommend a study to read: http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/M...

Terrorism is actually a beneficial thing both for Israel and US foreign policy, because it gives a reason to put in action other agendas (like full spectrum dominance) or the creation of a greater Israel. It puts extremists in power. It's not without reason Netanyahu said that 9/11 was good for Israel. The same is certainly also true for the neocons in USA. I wouldn't for a second count on these people to be actual protectors of anyone. Yes, Hamas are extremists as well, but we'd see Americans go apeshit if part of their land was voted away to a minority as well."



In the next snippet Hitchens makes the excellent point that it is not Israelis per se nor Arabs per se that are the problem - it is the religious elements in both Judaism and Islam that are driving the situation. It's only a 6:47 snippet. Secular Arabs and secular Jews are between a rock and a hard place.

Hitchens '09: Israel, Palestine & Zionism

 

[Tyger]

And then there is this firebrand -

Finkelstein dismantles the logic of zionism

Norman Finkelstein Responds to Clinton, Netanyahu AIPAC Comments-2010-03-23

 

[boomerang]

Are you saying, Tyger, that Israel has no right to exist?

The question is irrelevant. Israel does exist. Asking whether it has the right to do so is inviting a kind of straw man argument. Most of the world's conflicts have ancient roots that can be traced back to the machinations of war and politics: From Imperial Rome, Western colonialism and even before. No moral resolution is to be found here.


It seems to the western mindset (if such a thing exists in today's interconnected world) that the Middle East is living almost endlessly bogged down in the muck of history. I don't see that America's recent foreign policy is helping the region do otherwise, to say the least. Most of the world has accepted, either overtly or tacitly, the freezing of national borders post WWII. Dispute over the Ukraine and near universal disdain for Russia's current bailiwick is a prime example of how changing geography by force creates ripples of global effect.

Does the two state solution stand a chance? It would seem the only ethical choice. But both sides must sincerely want, respect and enforce it. They must also be prepared to accept a less than perfect peace with which both sides can live.

 

[kanakaris]

I wonder why it is that so few nations globally support the Palestinian problem? Seems to me that they also need a safe, secured homeland with an opportunity to build a real economy with access to traditional lands. While many are indignant, no one's putting up serious development cash or real political support for them. Why do so many politicians make a point of saying, "we are friends of Israel" but no one makes public displays of their friendship with Palestinians. Doesn't anyone even know who started up terrorism in the middle east or introduced things like car bombings to secure territory, as it sure wasn't Palestine that did that? History is an absent minded fool who makes smiles for necessary allies. Though I am entirely confused as to just what it is that all these western politicians are busy smiling at when they see the wreckage their friends make out of schools and hospitals.

Because of the U.S. of course.

 

[Tyger]

Does the two state solution stand a chance? It would seem the only ethical choice. But both sides must sincerely want, respect and enforce it. They must also be prepared to accept a less than perfect peace with which both sides can live.

It's an impossible choice. A one-state solution is what - ethically - is needed.

CrossTalk: Target - Gaza - with Dan Arbell, Norman Finkelstein and Mouin Rabbani.

 

[kanakaris]

"...the very land that was theirs to begin with."

"...the Israelis hunkered down and 'defended' themselves."

"...they have thrown the antisemitism charge at anyone who would dare question Israel's right to exist."

"...this 'solution' of 'the Jewish problem'-...payoff to the Jews..."

"It's not going to get better-Israel is ensuring that."

"What has to happen is the UN says 'Enough!', and the US says 'Enough!'"

"...and then the rest will follow."

"It's gone on for too long."

"...it needs to end."

"...that is their (Hamas's) point."

"...the international community that counts will rise up and put a stop to Israel."

"The solution is...the creation of a new state. Israel cannot continue as a religious state."

Are you saying Israel has no right to exist?

What IS the reason Israel exists ?A very old book of fairy tales.

 

[boomerang]

It's an impossible choice. A one-state solution is what - ethically - is needed.

Can you elaborate ?

 

[Tyger]

Posted one week ago - a good rendition of the situation around the Unity Government. Also a good rendering of the sequence of events -

Norman Finkelstein sur Gaza : Israël veut annihiler « l'offensive de paix » palestinienne

Until, of course, this - since a week ago, this is what Israel is doing. In case you're wondering, the stated goal is to wipe out the people in Gaza once and for all (from an interview this evening with Charlie Rose).

Our (US) Tax Dollars at Work. Our national treasure is pouring into Israel to do this -

See how the Israeli army destroyed Beit Hanoun

TEXT: "See how the Israeli army destroyed Beit Hanoun in one hour! When the shooting stopped on Saturday .. medics had found 130 bodies under the rubble in the eastern areas of Gaza."


IDF aftermath: Gaza power plant ablaze, media hub destroyed

TEXT: "Fourteen homes were damaged by the air strikes, 40,000 people were left without electricity and 20,000 people without wastewater disposal. Two Israeli tank shells have hit the Gaza Strip’s only power plant, according to a spokesman for Gaza's electricity distribution company."


Gaza Bombing: Massive explosion as Israeli strikes hit media building

TEXT: "An Israeli air strike hit a media building housing Hamas's Al Aqsa TV channel in the centre of Gaza City early on Tuesday morning. The strikes overnight on Monday followed an almost 12-hour lull in war-torn Gaza."