Gaza Israel bombings

[Wade]

false flag, mossad murdering 3 kids of their own ?. is that what you think wade.


I wouldnt put it out of question, sick'o murdering bastards that they are.

To be completely honest with you I was thinking more like a rogue element within Hamas but there were a few things that didnt occur to me. after posting my above post I came across this story

But yes you are right about Mossad, they are all kinds of rogue.


Israel, not Hamas, orchestrated the latest conflict in Gaza | Al Jazeera America

 

[flipper]

What difference does it make? How do you think the Jews would fare living under Islamic regime? Look at what's going on in Mosul, Iraq. Oldest Christian communities are being told to either convert, pay tax or die. There is over a million Arabs living in Israel, it's a multi-cultural society. What do you think life would be like living under Palestinians? What have they done with the billions of dollars in subsidies given to them? Did they build schools, infrastructure, businesses? Palestinians is a culture of hate from early on. It's not a tolerant society. The only thing they worship is death.

In fact Jews did live under Islamic Regimes all through the Middle Ages. For example you might want to investigate the history of the Moors. Jews held positions of importance in Arab governments in the Middle East. Jews fared better under Muslims than Christians. It is the European Christians that have the history of persecuting Jews not Muslims. The hate arrived when Europeans decided to set up a Zionist state. This meant that the Palestinians had to disappear. As far as the money that was given to Palestinians, they did build schools and hospitals which have been bombed. Second how do you rebuild when you cannot import cement? The other part is corruption. Imperialism works by making a few people very rich who are used to control the rest of the population. Aid has been described as the poor people of a rich country, giving money to the rich people of a poor country.

 

[flipper]

Looking back at the latest provocation that started this skirmish, it's hard not to consider that somebody thought that It's been too quiet and needed to shake things up, and in the tinder box that is the Middle East it doesn't take a lot to achieve that effect.

I have a tendency to put my own thought process into things and of course is a very dangerous road to go down, you can't do that because people are wild cards and you never know what they thinking.

No doubt there are Palestinians here with deep hatred toward Israeli people and the conditions certainly exist where a disturbed person would want to harm somone, even to the extent becoming a serial murderer, and possibly even get away with such crimes for a short time.

But the kidnapping and subsequent killing of 3 Israeli teenagers was a deliberate provocation and message with the inevitable result, message received and answered( in all of two days.) My guess is that it wasn't in the interests of the perpetrators to let this stay a random crime, Whomever did this had to had know that things would escalate with the predictable results. I don't think it was just a senseless "religious" or even ethnically biased crime.

“Justified Vengeance”, The Pretext for Bombing Gaza: Was the Netanyahu Government behind the Killings of the Three Israeli Teenagers?
Operation Protective Edge (OPE) directed against Gaza was planned well in advance of the kidnapping and murder of the three Israeli teenagers. Prime Minister Netanyahu has called up 40,000 reservists. In the wake of the shelling and bombing raids, a major ground operation scenario is envisaged.
Moreover, similar to the logic of the Dagan Plan, the head of Israeli intelligence (Mossad) had “predicted” the kidnapping of the three teenagers. Under the title Mossad chief’s chillingly prescient kidnap prophecy, Haaretz confirms that

“Mossad chief Tamir Pardo had “outlined a scenario that was spookily [sic] similar to the kidnapping of three teens missing in the West Bank” (Haaretz, July 13, 2014, emphasis added)
“Justified Vengeance”, The Pretext for Bombing Gaza: Was the Netanyahu Government behind the Killings of the Three Israeli Teenagers? | Global Research

 

[kanakaris]

Israel is an occupier.What's the difference between , Sadam invading Kuwait (what an uproar in the west !) ,Germany invading Poland and this ?

 

[flipper]

Israel is an occupier.What's the difference between , Sadam invading Kuwait (what an uproar in the west !) ,Germany invading Poland and this ?

What is the difference between Hitler's treatment of the Jews and the Israelis' treatment of the Palestinians?

 

[Ufocurious]

Guys, refresh my memory, please?
I remember something like this:
Ottomans won the war against, and Palestine was theirs;
English took over, Ottomans run away, Palestine is English,
English (UN) put the Jews there...
and we all hoped they would live happily after!

Is it so?

 

[Burnt State]

What is the difference between Hitler's treatment of the Jews and the Israelis' treatment of the Palestinians?

Part of what defines a people are the significant psycho-social stepping stones in their history i.e. lineage & patriarchal religions, slavery & exodus, anti-semitism & wandering, the holocaust & nation building, terrorism & hatred (both practiced by both sides), wall building & apartheid etc.. I don't condone any Zionist inspired practices but I do understand to some extent the how's & why's of the strange, tragic unfolding of Jewish history. Collective trauma will inspire new cultural attitudes and practices. Fear is a profound motivator. History is an even bigger one.

 

[Ufocurious]

Collective trauma will inspire new cultural attitudes and practices. .

I wish trauma would change people and nations to become better towards the collective. I am a pacifist at heart and I dream of living in a planet in which we all strive to end horror, war, excessive nationalism, etc.

 

[flipper]

Part of what defines a people are the significant psycho-social stepping stones in their history i.e. lineage & patriarchal religions, slavery & exodus, anti-semitism & wandering, the holocaust & nation building, terrorism & hatred (both practiced by both sides), wall building & apartheid etc.. I don't condone any Zionist inspired practices but I do understand to some extent the how's & why's of the strange, tragic unfolding of Jewish history. Collective trauma will inspire new cultural attitudes and practices. Fear is a profound motivator. History is an even bigger one.

This excuses what is happening in Gaza?

 

[flipper]

I wish trauma would change people and nations to become better towards the collective. I am a pacifist at heart and I dream of living in a planet in which we all strive to end horror, war, excessive nationalism, etc.

You might enjoy this site:
Let's try Democracy

Here is an example of David Swanson writings:
Of course, I have no right to tell the people of Gaza what to do or not do from the comfort of my home in the heart of the imperial monster that is funding their apocalypse. Of course I cannot know the situation as they know it. But it's not clear to me that every Gazan has as deep a familiarity with Israelis or every Israeli with Gazans as one might imagine from their geographic vicinity. The division between these two societies is extreme. How else could Israelis imagine children as their enemies? And how else could those children's parents imagine that firing rockets would win over hearts and minds?
You might also enjoying his podcasts.
Let's Try Democracy | Writings by David Swanson.

 

[Ufocurious]

Flipper
Thanks. I will read the blog later.
As a Brazilian I never understood war and why people go to other countries to fight for a war it is not theirs.
Canadian father-in-law frustration was that the II WWW ended before he could join. As a jew, who was born in Poland he thought others had to end the monster Hitler was, and then the soviets, and so on.
As he tried to indoctrinate me to become pro-war, my inner thoughts kept telling me if people just gave up their roots, ancient beliefs, a so on, a lot of problems would go away. Brazil is not a good country: corruption, slavery, class differences, racism, were and ARE part of our culture. But here, somehow, when immigrants arrive they forget their roots. They may keep the food and a few cultural things, but somehow manage to become Brazilians. It is nice to see we don't have people who call themselves third generation Italians; hispanic is a non existent word here; and Blumenau's OKTOBERFEST is more like a carnival than a biergartten!
Propaganda here makes my friends root for Gaza, but as someone who has both Israelis and Palestinian friends I keep telling them not to take sides because everything is much more complicated than what is shown on TV, and we have no idea what ancient hate is. I tell them both sides are wrong, and the majority of the people there are like us: they want peace, but the people in power are like our own politicians, selfish power mongers.

 

[Burnt State]

This excuses what is happening in Gaza?

No it does not. As I said, I don't condone it, but there are reasons why people collectively think and act a certain way. Perhaps solving wars means thinking proactively to meet needs, provide assurances etc. ahead of time to avoid bloodshed. But what I was also outlining is a certain inevitability regarding human culture and function that will drive a people to do what they do - exceptionalism, being one of them. There's a historic fatalism about Palestine and Israel and those are some of the features of the tragic destruction taking place. For different reasons I also understand why people might choose to hide rocket launchers in neighborhoods or use suicide bombing as a tactic.

When you look at the historical maps of Palestine you can see the trajectory of where this is all heading. No one wants to use the word 'apartheid' in relation to Israel, but it's actually worse than that IMHO.

 

[Ufocurious]

BTW
I ma maybe all wrong in my opinions, but here are things that I cringe when I see happening in my country:

1. the rise of BLACK BLOC
2. there is still communist indoctrination happening. My friend's son fell for it. I myself saw it happening around 10 years ago in a agricultural community for landless people funded by federal government. I went there to inspect the social housing that was being built and given away by our government. I am an architect in a Brazil's bank that oversees federal financing. To my "surprise" some of the original owners had left already, but hard core communists were there talking to the children/teenagers.
3. people that go to Cuba and are blind to the reality there. Somehow they have been fed so much propaganda they do not see reality.
4. We have 2 communist parties!?! PC do B, and PCB
5. corruption is rampant from the lower level up to to the highest. Getting a cut from somebody else's job is considered normal

IF THOSE THINGS HAPPEN IN A FREE COUNTRY LIKE MINE I WONDER WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE KIDS IN GAZA WHO HAVE NO FREEDOM.

 

[Ufocurious]

Burnt State

No one wants to use the word 'apartheid' in relation to Israel, but it's actually worse than that IMHO.
You are absolutely right.

One of my palestine friends used to live in the West Bank, and her sister in Jerusalem. One day she woke up and was not allowed to go to Jerusalem anymore. In order to visit her sister she had to walk 10 km and pretend she was a jew and take the bus (all dirty from the walk) to go to Jerusalem. Thanks to her intelligence, she just gave up all the idea of destroying her own life in the name of an ideal. She was an university professor, and some of her students became suicide bombers. She could not accept it. She managed to get a scholarship to do her PhD in the US, and now is an American citizen.

Editing 18 min later: everyone at the bus stop and inside the bus knew she was a palestine going to Jerusalem: she looks arab, she was dirty from the walk in the countryside, but no one gave her dirty looks. She told me that there was this unspoken acceptance. She was lucky she only met nice people in her wanderings. Imagine if she met radicals from either side: she could have been beaten, raped, or worse, killed.

 

[Burnt State]

Ufocurious: the story you tell is entirely reminiscent of the stories my partner tells me about what her life was like growing up in apartheid era South Africa as a non-white: double standards everywhere designed to remind you of your position in society, to break your spirit and keep you down.

Anyone who wants to better understand the dehumanizing process designed to keep Palestinians in vulnerable, amoral positions should read this difficult book:

Palestine (comics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tyger]

Five Misconceptions About the Israel-Palestine Conflict
LINK: Five Misconceptions About the Israel-Palestine Conflict

TEXT: "The stories and images coming from Gaza are truly heart-breaking. Over the past three weeks over 800 Palestinians have been brutally killed by Israeli forces, most of them civilians, among them at least 200 children. Hospitals have been bombed, neighborhoods have been reduced to rubble, and over 100,000 of an already refugee population have been displaced within a tiny strip of land. All this is even more unbearable when one witnesses the efforts to try to justify Israel's actions in the media. When most Americans say they consider Israel's Gaza offensive to be justified that simply reflects the amount of misinformation and propaganda that exists in the media.

I agree with the majority of Palestinians that the best way to end the occupation and the ongoing conflict is through peaceful negotiations and nonviolent resistance. The fact that Hamas won the elections in 2006 against Fatah should not be interpreted as popular support for their policies. Both parties are very unpopular among Palestinians.

Here are five of the many misconceptions about the Israel-Palestine conflict:

Misconception 1. Israeli attacks are a response to rockets from Hamas.

If anything, the opposite is more plausible: that Hamas is responding to Israeli provocations and attacks by launching rockets.

In the recent series of events, Hamas launched its very first rockets on July 7, in retaliation to overnight airstrikes that killed several Hamas militants, calling it a"grave escalation." Those were the first rockets Hamas claimed responsibility for since the 2012 cease-fire. The events prior to July 7 suggest that Israel acted to provoke a response from Hamas that could serve as a pretext for launching a military operation in Gaza. The violent raids and mass arrests of politicians and activists in the West Bank provoked some rocket attacks, but none were from Hamas. Israeli officials had to wait until the day Hamas launched rockets to announce "Operation Protective Edge."

If that does not convince you, consider this: In the first three months following the November 2012 cease-fire, not a single rocket came out of the Palestinian territories. Israel, however, carried out numerous unprovoked attacks and incursions, killing innocent civilians and violating the cease-fire.

These examples are the pattern rather than the exceptions. Perhaps the most telling case was the cease-fire in June 2008. Israel did not honor the cease-fire terms, kept the harsh blockade on Gaza and continued attacking Gazans even just hours after thecease-fire began. Despite this, not a single rocket was fired by Hamas, and there were zero Israeli casualties resulting from violence from Gaza. Hamas even went as far asimprisoning members of other militant groups that were firing rockets during that period. After several months of relative calm, Israel broke the truce with unprovoked airstrikes in November, killing several Hamas members. Hamas responded with rockets. The situation escalated and eventually led to Operation Cast Lead, a 22-day assault on Gaza that killed roughly 1,400 Palestinians, mostly civilians.

Misconception 2. Israel wants to stop the violence, but Hamas rejects offers for peace.

In the days before the ongoing ground invasion, Egypt proposed a cease-fire that Israel immediately accepted and Hamas rejected, saying it hadn't been consulted about the offer and learned about it from the news. Hamas then proposed their owncease-fire terms.

Very few sources mentioned that Hamas was already offering cease-fire terms evenbefore the Egyptian proposal. From the very first day after Hamas and Israel began exchanging fire, Hamas offered to stop firing rockets in return for a release of the prisoners who were re-arrested after the Shalit prisoner exchange and a recommitment to the 2012 cease-fire terms by Israel.

Similarly, in the events leading to the ground invasion of 2008, Hamas offered to extend the cease-fire that was violated by Israel. Israel rejected the offer because Hamas included conditions Israel deemed unacceptable, for example lifting the blockade, stopping attacks and expanding the truce to cover the West Bank.

Misconception 3. Israel provides humanitarian aid to Gaza even during times of conflict.

Israel is restricting - not providing - food and humanitarian aid to Gaza. There is a very harsh blockade on Gaza that limits and regulates the flow of goods, into and out of Gaza. Israeli authorities actually had to calculate the minimum amount of calories needed to prevent malnutrition (a daily average of 2,279 calories per person) in an attempt to optimize what they call "economic warfare." The goal is to "keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge" as a form of collective punishment for voting for Hamas. The motivation behind this strategy is discussed quite openly. Palestinians are treated like cattle that need to be guided with carrots and sticks. Thomas Friedman writes in a recent op-ed:

Sure, Israel can inflict enough pain on all of Gaza to get a cease-fire, but it never lasts. The only sustainable way to do it is by Israel partnering with moderate Palestinians in the West Bank to build a thriving state there, so Gaza Palestinians wake up every day and say to the nihilistic Hamas: "We want what our West Bank cousins have."

As a matter of fact, we know from Amnesty International that during the previous ground invasion, "Israeli forces deliberately blocked and otherwise impeded emergency relief and humanitarian assistance. They also attacked aid convoys, and distribution centers and medical personnel, prompting United Nations Relief and Works Agency [UNRWA] and the ICRC [Internatonal Committee of the Red Cross] to cut back on their operations in Gaza"

So when Israeli officials say they are providing food and humanitarian aid to Gaza, what they actually mean is that they haven't totally cut off Gaza from basic supplies and they are still allowing the 150 truckloads a day to reach the 1.8 million population. Gaza is already in a state of humanitarian crisis, even without the intensive bombardment. That is why Palestinians are so insistent on conditioning the truce to lifting the blockade.

Misconception 4. Hamas uses human shields.

Israel tries to explain the high civilian tolls by blaming Hamas for using human shields. The claim is that Hamas stores weapons and launches rockets near residential areas, leaving Israel with no choice but to bomb those locations.

That Hamas launches and stores rockets near densely populated residential areas must inevitably be true, since Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth and if Hamas had designated an area for military operations, it would be instantly pulverized by Israeli forces. But, this does not necessarily qualify as using"human shields," defined as "intentionally using civilians to shield a military objective." So, for example, the weapons that were discovered in one UNRWA school last week (an incident described as "the first of its kind), does not confirm the "human shield" allegations, because the school was vacant at the time.

Amnesty International investigated Israel's previous claims in 2009 and found "no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants or prevented them from leaving commandeered building." The same report found that on several occasions the Israeli forces, however, "had forced Palestinians to serve as human shields," as also confirmed by Human Rights Watch and the UN.

Amnesty's report acknowledges that Palestinian armed groups were endangering civilians by "firing rockets from residential areas and storing weapons, explosives and ammunition in them," but also acknowledged that mixing with the civilian population "would be difficult to avoid in the small and overcrowded Gaza Strip, and there is no evidence that they did so with the intent of shielding themselves." The report also points out that Israel behaves similarly by placing military bases and headquarters in or around residential areas of Israeli cities and conducting military activities "close to civilian areas in the south of Israel."

Anyone who paid attention to the twitter account of Hamas' military wing (recently suspended) would have noticed that whenever they announced they were launching rockets at Israeli cities, they would claim they were targeting military bases. It would be absurd to blame potential Israeli civilian casualties on the Israeli Defense Force for placing military bases close to residential areas. But blaming Palestinian civilian casualties on Hamas is quite normal.

Furthermore, forcing civilians to act as human shields for military objectives should not be confused with activists voluntarily acting as human shields to protect hospitals and homes. The former is a war crime and should be condemned, but the latter is a courageous form of nonviolent resistance and should be praised.

Misconception 5. Israeli forces never deliberately target civilians.

It is hard to imagine that Israeli forces do not foresee the predictable consequence of massive bombardment of homes, hospitals, schools, mosques, cafes and ambulances. Over 80 percent of the casualties have been civilians.

Nicolas Palarus from Doctors Without Borders says:

"While official claims that the objective of the ground offensive is to destroy tunnels into Israel, what we see on the ground is that bombing is indiscriminate and that those who die are civilians."

The IDF's actions are more than plain carelessness or disregard for civilian lives. We know from previous investigations that there have been numerous cases where Israeli soldiers shot and killed civilians carrying white flags during "Operation Cast Lead" five years ago, as documented by Human Rights Watch and by Amnesty International.

The public has been kept uninformed and ignorant about the crimes that are being carried out in their name. Surely, there are many tragic things going on around the world, but this one we are responsible for. As long as the government continues toprovide Israel with billions of dollars of annual military aid and exceptional political support for its crimes, the bloodshed will continue."​

 

[flipper]

No it does not. As I said, I don't condone it, but there are reasons why people collectively think and act a certain way. Perhaps solving wars means thinking proactively to meet needs, provide assurances etc. ahead of time to avoid bloodshed. But what I was also outlining is a certain inevitability regarding human culture and function that will drive a people to do what they do - exceptionalism, being one of them. There's a historic fatalism about Palestine and Israel and those are some of the features of the tragic destruction taking place. For different reasons I also understand why people might choose to hide rocket launchers in neighborhoods or use suicide bombing as a tactic.

When you look at the historical maps of Palestine you can see the trajectory of where this is all heading. No one wants to use the word 'apartheid' in relation to Israel, but it's actually worse than that IMHO.

Apartheid is a given (i.e.) ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE. What needs to said again again is that Israel is committing genocide.

 

[Bananas]

Not that I support what's happening with this conflict, but I fing it curious when people make this about morals. I mean, the "west" was built on slavery and genocide. The only reason Europe or NA isn't seeign the same things happening, is because they already did, and the victors are in power now because there was no one left to fight back in these regions. What's worse, is that this is nothing but mental masturbation. There's only 2 solutions here.

One: Genocide/Displacement of the Palestines from the region entirely.

Two: Israelis just pack up and leave.

Since number 2 ain't happening, we're left with option one. You might think that peace is possible, but it isn't. Israel will continue to instigate violence against them so they then can go in and "clean house" with the full support of the west. They will continue to do this until the Palestinians are gone from the region entirely, one way or another. I simply wish people would focus on the reality of the situation, instead of their political/moral views which mean less than dogshit to the people there.

EDIT: There's also the possibility that the people will overthrow the Israeli government and let the Palestinians be at peace. Though I find that a rather slim possibility.

 

[flipper]

Flipper
Thanks. I will read the blog later.
As a Brazilian I never understood war and why people go to other countries to fight for a war it is not theirs.
Canadian father-in-law frustration was that the II WWW ended before he could join. As a jew, who was born in Poland he thought others had to end the monster Hitler was, and then the soviets, and so on.
As he tried to indoctrinate me to become pro-war, my inner thoughts kept telling me if people just gave up their roots, ancient beliefs, a so on, a lot of problems would go away. Brazil is not a good country: corruption, slavery, class differences, racism, were and ARE part of our culture. But here, somehow, when immigrants arrive they forget their roots. They may keep the food and a few cultural things, but somehow manage to become Brazilians. It is nice to see we don't have people who call themselves third generation Italians; hispanic is a non existent word here; and Blumenau's OKTOBERFEST is more like a carnival than a biergartten!
Propaganda here makes my friends root for Gaza, but as someone who has both Israelis and Palestinian friends I keep telling them not to take sides because everything is much more complicated than what is shown on TV, and we have no idea what ancient hate is. I tell them both sides are wrong, and the majority of the people there are like us: they want peace, but the people in power are like our own politicians, selfish power mongers.

I find it meaningful when people share their personal stories. I was once a Christian Zionist who visited Israel. Years non stop injustice toward the Palestinian people engineered by the United States of America and executed by its friends have changed my mind. I agree that those with their hands on the levers of power want war and hate. I agree that want the people everywhere, including in the land called Palestine\Israel just want to have family, friend, a meaningful job or just a job and peace. However the murder of the Palestinian people and the continuous injustice that is inflicted upon them is not complicated to see and must be opposed.

 

[Ufocurious]

There is a third option: Israel assimilates the Palestinians. And the palestinians forget all about their stolen properties and horrible treatment.
Ooops, it is not gonna happen.
Below, I am being silly with a serious matter. Sorry, but I cannot resist. If I do it it is because my kids are 50% jewish, and their beloved great grandmother, a woman whom I loved and respected, helped create Israel from Canada by asking for money to build daycares in Israel. I feel entitled to do so. Plus I think it is beyond ethnies, race, or religion. It is all about power.

There it goes: My son was telling me the big mistake was not to put Israel in Canada. In 1948 I am sure Canada's north was a wasteland. And it had good resources such as natural gas, oil, wood, and hydropower, depending of which "wasteland" was given.
All they had to do was to deal with the natives, the real owners of Canada. Oh, better yet, why we just didn't give them Manhattan? I thought. I guess because they already owned it...