Gaza Israel bombings

[Tyger]

Can you elaborate ?

In what way?

 

[boomerang]

In what way?

I'm not being facetious. Why would a one-state solution be preferable?

 

[flipper]

Are you saying, Tyger, that Israel has no right to exist?

If you research and find out what the leaders of the nations that oppose Israel's action actually say, I believe you will find that what they say is that Israel does not have the right to exist as a Zionist state. The Zionist have highjack the word Jewish but many Jews oppose Israel's existence as a Zionist state. The neighbour issue is a telling one. It tells of the power of the ruling elite that they have been able to use the United States to break up any attempt for Arab unity (see Gamal Abdel Nasser.) Before the United States involvement was the English dividing and conquering the Arab peoples. Blood should be thicker than money.

 

[flipper]

"...the very land that was theirs to begin with."

Well not exactly. When God gave the land to Abraham, was the land empty? God gave so much land that it goes as far as modern day Iraq. Moses brought the Hebrew people back and was told to eliminate everyone, living the land, in what became under David, Israel, (uniting the north and the south.) First Israel was eliminated, and then Judah was kicked out of the land by God because the people were bad. Jews (some Jewish sects believe this) that returning to the land now called Israel is against God's will. All through the middle ages Arabs and Jews lived in Palestine\Israel with Arabs being the majority. Therefore Michaelangel it does not matter which beginning you choose, it was not theirs to begin with.

 

[michaelangel1453]

The anti Jewish comments on this thread have crossed a line. Additionally, there's been an horrific display of ignorance of history ancient and modern that would be laughable if it wasn't so pitiful. It's akin to believing, as one astute commenter here prone to posting interminable swaths of stuff from dubious sources does, that there were humans living contemporaneously with dinosaurs. It's really that bad, I'm afraid.

Just a few statements of fact plucked from the blue in no special order:

1. Israel has an historic claim to the land within its borders.
2. Israel is, and you hate hearing it, a true and vibrant democracy.
3. Israel is a nation of humanitarian ideals with, for one, a history of accepting emigrants from other countries.
4. From the moment of its legal and rightful inception it's been attacked by Arab countries ganging up on it, who got their clocks cleaned every time bigtime.
5. It's been the victim of unceasing terrorist cowardly attacks, and this attack on Gaza is pure self defense, done as carefully as can be done, and under the unrelenting rain of thousands of sophisticated rockets.
6. #5 is indisputable despite Tyger's so called "five misconceptions" earlier in the thread.
7. I quoted many of Tyger's own words, and in my opinion they are reckless. Israel has every right to exist.
8. Israel is the only democracy in the region, a tiny beacon in a sea of totalitarianism.
9. Israel is very small, with a tiny waist, and vulnerable. Its possession of a brave armed forces and nuclear weapons deliverable by missile, submarine, and aircraft is entirely warranted.
10. NY Times headline today: Arab Leaders, Viewing Hamas as Worse than Israel, Stay Silent.
11. Comments in Times and numerous publications show strong support for Israel's actions of self defense.
12. The existence and borders of Arab nations in the region are themselves quite recent.
13. Look at a map. Tiny, tiny Israel. And to hear Arabs you'd think that Jews and Israel are the cause of all their problems.

That's a baker's dozen, and I could go on. Again, the comments here are decidedly based in ignorance of history and basic facts, and hyperbolic assertions comparing Jews to Hitler don't make them any more reliable.

 

[Ufocurious]

Flipper
I don't read the bible unless I want to find quotes. Can you tell me where I can find this:
Moses brought the Hebrew people back and was told to eliminate everyone,...
Thanks

 

[michaelangel1453]

Flipper, for gosh sakes, I was quoting Tyger there. Go read his two posts I was quoting from.

 

[manxman]

I dont know about anyone else, but when i read this micheal geezers propaganda 3 posts up, i felt an immediate and irresistible urge to post the descriptor 'cock-sucker'.

 

[michaelangel1453]

A great lantern of enlightenment writes "false flag, mossad murdering 3 kids of their own?...I wouldn't put it out of question, sick'o murdering bastards that they are."

Another bright bulb responds "Those three boys were killed by a silenced weapon..."

Both these great scholars were "liked" by a third shining sun of great wisdom.

QED

 

[manxman]

heres a 4 star response, **** off.

 

[Tyger]

There has been a bit of a mash-up because the poster Michaelangel1453 did not actually quote me through the system so that his quotes are not attributed. Flipper it was me that said the following:

"...the very land that was theirs to begin with."

I was referencing that it was the Palestinians that were forced off the land to make way for the creation of the state of Israel in the 1940's. My point was that in that act creating the state of Israel there was created a refugee problem that the UN and the western powers never addressed in their quick-fix for the Jewish refugee problem after WWII. In 'solving' one refugee problem they created another.

Well not exactly. When God gave the land to Abraham, was the land empty?

Flipper, your response to what you thought was MA1453's post [further referenced as M1] - as you can now see - does not apply.

However, I have read the Old Testament and I can vouch for the fact that the 'Promised Land' was not void of people when the Israelites arrived in earnest. From the perspective of the people living there at the time of the Israelites arrival, they were being invaded by the nomadic tribes from out of the desert, akin to Rome being overwhelmed by the Vandals. The Israelites attacked cities and it took considerable effort on their part to subdue the population. In some instances they wiped out the people living in a particular area. (This all according to the Bible). They were not operating by current sensibilities - it's what everyone did back then - and each had their god that approved of how they went about things. Similar to the Greeks in the Trojan War - each side had their gods who championed their chosen side.

Yet this whole argument is moot. It's a red herring. It's purely a religious argument used to justify a modern land grab. Though in doing some research about this I came across that the reason the orthodox Jews are so intense about settling the land has to do with the belief that the Jews must be on that land because that is where the Messiah will be born. They are waiting for the birth of their Messiah - hence the fanaticism of their stand that they must be there, on that land, no matter who owned it before them 30 and 40 and 50 and 60 years ago. It's why they feel they can mow down the homes of Palestinians and build their own houses with nary a tick of conscience.

 

[Tyger]

Flipper
I don't read the bible unless I want to find quotes. Can you tell me where I can find this:
Moses brought the Hebrew people back and was told to eliminate everyone,...
Thanks

I don't recall a direct statement to this effect being attributed to the Hebrew god - however, it is salted as a given throughout the entire sequence of the Israelites conquest of the Holy Land. They did have to conquer the area - there were people there - there were cities. This was not an area void of people. No more than in the 1940's when the state of Israel was created and the Palestinians were forced into exile. The Hebrew Bible is quite detailed on what they did - they had no reason to hide their invasion and take over of the area as to them it was a vindication of both their bravery and the strength of their god. Might makes right - as the ancients (not just the ancient Hebrews) saw it.

Battle of Jericho
LINK: Battle of Jericho - Bible Story Summary

TEXT: "The battle of Jericho featured one of the most astounding miracles in the Bible, proving that God stood with the Israelites.

After the death of Moses, God chose Joshua, son of Nun, to be the leader of the Israelite people. They set about to conquer the land of Canaan, under the Lord's guidance. God said to Joshua, "Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go." (Joshua 1:9, NIV).

Spies from the Israelites sneaked into the walled city of Jericho and stayed at the house of Rahab, a prostitute. But Rahab had faith in God. She hid the spies from the king's soldiers, and when the time was right, she helped the spies escape out a window and down a rope, since her house was built into the city wall.

Rahab made the spies swear an oath. She promised not to give their plans away, and in return they swore to spare Rahab and her family when the battle of Jericho began. She was to tie a scarlet cord in her window as a sign of their protection."

Meanwhile, the Israelite people continued to move into Canaan. God commanded Joshua to have the priests carry the Ark of the Covenant into the center of the Jordan River, which was at flood stage. As soon as they stepped into the river, the water stopped flowing. It piled up in heaps upstream and downstream, so the people could cross on dry ground. God performed a miracle for Joshua, just as he had done for Moses, by parting the Red Sea."

 

[michaelangel1453]

The little mention of the Vandals tells me additionally that your grasp of history on Israel and the Jews is weak. I did part of my advanced degree work on the Vandals, ironically enough, and this is a stunningly ripe moment for you to visit that Woody Allen/Marshall McLuhan scene from Annie Hall. You pretend to know more than you do about the Vandals, very obvious from the brief mention of them. Please read my baker's dozen list above. The comments here often descend into virulent bigotry toward Jews.

 

[Tyger]

Sigh' - the same'ol'same'ol from the same'ol'same'ol. I am convinced that michaelangel1453 is a puppet account for Randall. Someone else thinks he is the puppet account for a poster who lives in New Zealand (maybe Australia) due to some posting language similarities to a New Zealand poster on this site. I personally favor Randall, as the MO fits Randall to a 'T'. It appears I have my very own stalker on this site. (Randall has been told to stay clear of where I post and Randall himself says he has me on 'Ignore'). Should I feel complimented that Randall has gone to all this trouble to continue baiting me? Probably not.

As always: Randall/M1 does not actually read posts or investigate links in a serious discussion. If he reads posts he either willfully misrepresents what he has read or genuinely has a problem making sense of what he reads - because he routinely mis-states what someone says. I think this is a form of baiting - trying to get the poster addressed in this way to come out swinging with a response, or at least a 'correction' so that the endless and time-consuming back-and-forth regarding minute details of irrelevance can be engaged.

There is no anti-semitism on this thread. This is a discussion regarding politics. Israel is a nation state. As such it is up for critique for its actions and policies - like any other national entity. The charge of anti-Semitism has been leveled at anyone - even Jews themselves - who dare question Israel's actions and policies. The charge of anti-semitism is bogus.

It's very convenient that Randall/M1 claims to have done his 'advanced degree work' on the Vandals sack of Rome. How coincidental is that? Thing is, if he has actually done such research he will know that my analogy holds: from the perspective of the indigenous population of the 'Holy Land' at the time of Moses and Joshua, the Israelites were a descending horde from out the wilderness of the Sinai. The analogy is not exact in all details - no analogy is. I could have used the Mongol Hordes as an example of the experience - though as with all such analogies, it would not be exact, nor is it intended to be so. In sum, the indigenous population found themselves having to contend with invaders. It wasn't unique to the times. That's what the tribes were doing all around that area. It was all up for grabs for the strongest and cleverest fighters. If Mr Randall/M1 knows different then he should be able to exposit and link. But he won't because that's not his raison d'être for being on this thread. He's a troll - and trolls get their jollies with baiting and reactions.

'Nuf said.

 

[Tyger]

Perhaps the single most important reason for a thorough and honest critique of Israel's actions and policies is that - I - as well as anyone else who is an American taxpayer - is bank-rolling Israel's military. It is a dereliction of our responsibility to be informed citizens not to be aware of exactly what is going down in Israel under our aegis.

The US is also a nation that includes not just Jews as in Israelis, but Muslims as in Palestinians. We have a responsibility to both - but not at the expense of one or the other. For too long we have turned a blind eye to what Israel is doing regarding the Palestinians. It needs to change - and at long last it is beginning to change. Israel has gone too many steps too far. Israel needs to be sanctioned. The US needs to withhold arms and money.

What Israel does is the business of everyone in this world because Israel has nuclear capability. There is enough craziness being demonstrated in Israel's actions that every one should be concerned that they have a finger on a nuclear arsenal.

Israel is distressed by the world's growing condemnation? Well they should be distressed. They are wrong in what they are doing. Full stop. They need to accept culpability for past and current errors and reverse course. Israel could be a beacon of hope. As it stands, it is a cause for growing hates and fears. The situation needs to change.

 

[michaelangel1453]

No, I'm not Randall, for the last time. I'm saying it again, yet again, because you owe him another apology for that accusation, again. It's sick, this obsession you have with him.

I came on this thread to correct the out of control and out of line comments regarding Jews and Israel. All facts point to Israel defending itself against a hostile region, the Jews do have an historic right to have established a state there, it is a true democracy, and is fighting for its existence. It has bent over backwards over decades to bring peace, those decades punctuated by wars begun by Arab coalitions, those decades marked by unceasing terrorist attacks, now more than ever facilitated by tunnels lined with unbelievable tons of concrete NOT used in construction of infrastructure. I could go on and on, but people on this thread, the tiny number dominating it, have a hatred of Israel that goes beyond the capacity of facts to remedy. It's nearly a depravity, as shown in comments.

There had to be a balanced response, and that's why I came in, not to stalk you. Another evidence of an overweening self indulgence. What thread aren't you on, vociferously so? I'm here as a voice for Israel.

And, yes, my study was of the Vandals, extensively so. It's not hard to catch you in pretense. You let yourself run at the pen with little self control. You're not the only one of the few who've run wild with anti Jewish comments on this thread.

There's a view that if you can catch a pretender in one thing, like the Vandals, it can cause the whole house of cards to become suspect. This thread needed balance, and you resent it. While the others often were just nasty in comments about Israel, as in murdering their own children to start this war, you are more consciously iron fist in velvet glove, couching your assertions that Israel in its present form should not exist ( whatever the heck that means) in more pretentious "intellectual" terms. You got caught, and you really have no idea what I mean about your invoking the Vandals.

I'm me, as much as you're you, and nobody else, so grow up and accept my presence for what it is, my effort to give some balance to a lopsided bunch of comments.

 

[flipper]

Flipper
I don't read the bible unless I want to find quotes. Can you tell me where I can find this:
Moses brought the Hebrew people back and was told to eliminate everyone,...
Thanks

Deuteronomy 7
7 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them
Deuteronomy 20

16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:
Joshua 6
21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

 

[manxman]

I'm me, as much as you're you, and nobody else, so grow up and accept my presence for what it is, my effort to give some balance to a lopsided bunch of comments.

Balance.

I came on this thread to correct the out of control and out of line comments regarding Jews and Israel. All facts point to Israel defending itself against a hostile region, the Jews do have an historic right to have established a state there, it is a true democracy, and is fighting for its existence. It has bent over backwards over decades to bring peace, those decades punctuated by wars begun by Arab coalitions,


These statements alone show you are no more than trolling, you are stinking the place up, you Zionist apologist, propaganda whoring cock-sucker, jog on dickhead.

 

[Tyger]

Sigh' - okay, a direct response.

No, I'm not Randall, for the last time. I'm saying it again, yet again, because you owe him another apology for that accusation, again.

Wrong. I've apologized to Randal on a couple of occasions (I now regret to say) - until I understood the game he was running/playing - and now I don't bother, mainly because I have not really done anything to him (as you very well know, Randall). He has never apologized to me btw. Same as you. Your texting behavior on the Paranormal thread was atrocious. Not one peep of remorse from you for being - well, you know what you are.

It's sick, this obsession you have with him.

Ha! I'd say it's you that has the obsession. You have reserved most all of your posting - about 95% - since you arrived here - for threads I am on - and you are always trying to draw me out. Very curious.

Another aspect of Randall's MO is to divert discussion onto himself by making personal comments about posters and their ideas - trying to instigate a conversation focused on him rather than the topic.

There had to be a balanced response, and that's why I came in, not to stalk you. Another evidence of an overweening self indulgence.

On both the Paranormal thread and this thread you have tried to bait me out. You have done direct shout-outs to me on both this thread and the Paranormal thread. You also identify me by skewed references. It's clear what you're doing. It's also clear that you have some sort of need to maintain a connection to me. Should I be flattered? I'm not.

What thread aren't you on, vociferously so?

I am not on many threads, in fact. My presence on this chat site is very limited. You have to be trying to find me to think that I am all the threads.

'Vociferously'? You have a problem with me, Randall - that is abundantly clear.

I'm here as a voice for Israel.

You're not doing a particularly good job. JMO.

In point if fact, I am also here for Israel. Not for Israel's propaganda - no. I'm here for the truth of the situation. That's what Israel needs.

I came on this thread to correct the out of control and out of line comments regarding Jews and Israel.

You haven't done a good job of this. Please identify what comments are 'out of control' and 'out of line' regarding Jews and Israel. I'll assume you can't do that identification - which is why you haven't.

All facts point to Israel defending itself against a hostile region,

For sure it's a hostile region but not because Israel is Jewish. I would guess if the UN had swept clear Palestine for a Seventh Day Adventist national state the Palestinians and Arab states in general would still have been hostile. There was a mistake committed at the inception. The British should have just released Palestine, allowing the UN to oversee the creation of a Palestinian state that the Jews and Muslims could have participated in equally.

the Jews do have an historic right to have established a state there

No they do not. If you believe this I would ask that you explain this belief as from what you say I would assume that you are a religious Jew - or a religious Zionist. As Christopher Hitchens says (one of the times I agree with him) that belief is messianic and superstitious.

it is a true democracy

Nope. A national state based on religion cannot be a 'true democracy'.

and is fighting for its existence.

Yes and no. Israel is its own worst enemy.

It has bent over backwards over decades to bring peace,

That's up for debate. The facts speak otherwise.

those decades punctuated by wars begun by Arab coalitions,

You need to go back to your history books. Not so.

those decades marked by unceasing terrorist attacks,

If true, the symptom of desperate people. Israel needs to consider what would make the Palestinians less desperate, more happy, more pleased to be Israel's neighbor.

now more than ever facilitated by tunnels lined with unbelievable tons of concrete NOT used in construction of infrastructure.

You're right there. Scary. Something clearly needs to change so that the Palestinians are not driven by that level of desperation. Trying to tunnel out of their prison - how dare they!

I could go on and on, but people on this thread, the tiny number dominating it,

A tad OTT. There a few participating, I think you mean.

have a hatred of Israel that goes beyond the capacity of facts to remedy.

I am not aware of any hatred expressed here toward Israel. There is definitely criticism - you seem to think that is hatred? There is definitely a sense that the Palestinians have been oppressed - do you interpret any benign view in that direction a suggestion of anti-Israel sentiment? Where you see anti-semitism is unclear.

It's nearly a depravity, as shown in comments.

Instead of categoric statements you need to be more clear where you see 'depravity'.

And, yes, my study was of the Vandals, extensively so.

Given what you have just demonstrated regarding your ability to read and understand text - and accurately report what you have read - I fear that I don't have a great deal of confidence in your 'extensive study' of the Vandals.

If you have actually studied at a higher academic level than is the norm, you must know that simply stating that you know more is not sufficient. You have to actually articulate your views/objections and even supply back-up upon occasion. Waving your hands, stomping your feet and crinkling up paper does not constitute rebuttal.

It's not hard to catch you in pretense.

I think we both know who is really the pretender here.

You let yourself run at the pen with little self control.

Might that describe you? Kettle black and all that? You produce a lot of text but say nothing of substance. You just make accusations.

You're not the only one of the few who've run wild with anti Jewish comments on this thread.

Could you show where such has occurred? You need to quote correctly so that the quote's origin can be traced. Taking out-of-context isn't helpful.

There's a view that if you can catch a pretender in one thing, like the Vandals, it can cause the whole house of cards to become suspect.

Fact is you have presented nothing to convince that my analogy was 'off'. Since you claim/pretend to know better, I await your elucidation on the matter. Don't hold back. I think I'll be able to follow your superior grasp of the Vandal analogy and where I went wrong in my 'pretentiousness'.

Also, what is the house-of-cards?

This thread needed balance, and you resent it.

No. That's your imagination/fantasy working overtime.

While the others often were just nasty in comments about Israel, as in murdering their own children to start this war, you are more consciously iron fist in velvet glove, couching your assertions that Israel in its present form should not exist ( whatever the heck that means) in more pretentious "intellectual" terms.

From this I think I intimidate you. Oh.

You got caught, and you really have no idea what I mean about your invoking the Vandals.

Will you ever be more open about what you are talking about? In what way did I get 'caught'? In what way was my analogy inaccurate? You must say - not just accuse.

I'm me, as much as you're you, and nobody else, so grow up

Ah, yes, the great hope I have for you, Randall. When you can cease and desist from this kind of posting I will have hope for you.

accept my presence for what it is, my effort to give some balance to a lopsided bunch of comments.

I think you would be best served by stating your views clearly and succinctly. Full stop. Refrain from making your posts a shout-out to me or blunted references to what you think my past views have been (you are seriously skewed in your thinking regarding me if you believe what you post and are not just trolling for kicks). Make your posts about the topic and not about others. All good advice. Posters will be able to take you more seriously, I think you'll find.

Now to explain - this is exactly what Randall does - he sucks out all the oxygen on a thread diverting it to focus on his strange tangential issues. You say you are not Randall? You are Randall to me - so Randall I will call you.

 

[truthseeker]

How quickly people forget.