Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Like I said, we disagree on a lot, but I don't think he's an idiot.
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Ray Stanford has a photo of the Socorro craft & Martin Willis has seen it and is impressed but...
- Thread starter EQ42
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Like I said, we disagree on a lot, but I don't think he's an idiot.
The Darkroom
Skilled Investigator
I'm betting he can find things he authored or got published. Here's a published report you should be able to track down and digital photo or scan considering this was from a MUFON conference too:
Chris O'Brien wrote:
The 1980 MUFON UFO SYMPOSIUM PROCEEDINGS of their symposium held on June 6, 7, and 8, 1980, in Clearlake City, Texas. That specific symposium was titled, "UFO TECHNOLOGY; a detailed examination".
Ray's paper, INSTRUMENTED SENSING, RECORDING, AND DOCUMENTATION OF TRANSIENT PHENOMENA IN UFO EVENTS, provided 26 pages of text, photos, and analog graphs of both ELF magnetic and gravimeter sensor outputs from the July, 1978 events, and those graphs even include the WWVB Bureau of Standards time and date signal, as well as monitoring system's accompanying calibration tone. It's all on pages 151 - 177 of the symposium proceedings. EDIT BTW: The paper includes a print from the first film ever to record multiple concentric rings due to Faraday rotation of backlighting passing through the dipolar magnetic field of a gigantic 'mothership' filmed on 12-12-77 from an airliner at 39,000 feet -- a multi-witness event.
I didn't know the Travis Walton case had been proven a hoax? There are plenty aspects to the case I find hard to disprove and I have yet to hear even a half-convincing explanation to a motive for a hoax and how it was carried out if so? I certainly don't have an iron in the fire so to speak and if there is strong evidence the Walton case is bunk then I'm all ears...
The Darkroom
Skilled Investigator
I would like to know what Chris O'Brien's [or Stanford's] darkroom experience is with still photography? Does he [or Ray] have years of experience developing and printing, what formats and negative brand types, and what type of subjects?
What still camera formats did he or Ray use before digital for subjects beyond 100 meters that captured any UFO? What lenses? What film specs?
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
I've never claimed Walton was a "proven" hoaxer ( except for his cheque scamming ), and that if someone ( anyone - Chris included ) wants to believe the UFO abduction claims of a convicted scam artist without a mountain of verifiable supporting evidence, then I think it's fair to say they have a "blind spot". So maybe that applies to Stanford as well to some extent ( I don't know ). We can't judge for ourselves because we don't have access to the evidence.
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Randall
J. Randall Murphy
We both definitely agree on that. I certainly wasn't suggesting or implying otherwise. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Chris' work.
Ben Moss
Skilled Investigator
I will ask. Thanks for mentioning it.
Creepy Green Light
Paranormal Adept
I could be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet $20 when it does see the light of day that everyones reaction is going to be something like "uhhhhhh......wait, what? That's what I waited 40 years to see? It just looks like a smudge...."
But hopefully not. I'm hoping whatever type of craft/object he's filmed is as clear as Meier's "Beamship".
No, you didn't to be fair - I expect I am surprised to find out it was a case you had little faith in but I don't actually remember reading anything you may have posted on the case either way until now, I just got a certain tone from your comment that seemed quite dismissive, as if it was a clear cut hoax in your opinion? I am certainly interested in what your view of the case because you usually have a pretty balanced view of many well-known cases.
I agree Ian and I'm often to be found saying that despite appearing on the odd radio show/podcast, Ray himself doesn't actually go around saying he has 'the smoking gun' or anything that will blow everyone's mind in terms of proof of UFO existence. I may be wrong or unintentionally biased but what I do think Ray says is that his work is unique in that he believes he has discovered something important about UFO propulsion, something that mainstream science and military science would be interested in.
I think that is really the sum of what Ray claims himself but I could be wrong. It is easy to mix up what one person has said themselves and what supporters of that person may be heard saying on their behalf but without their permission, if that makes sense.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
I wouldn't say the Walton case is a "clear cut" hoax, I just personally don't believe the whole story. There is a short page on the incident on my website that explains it better than if I were to copy all to here.
technomage
Paranormal Adept
Is there a particular abduction case that you believe isn't a hoax and isn't likely the result of mind control by humans (i.e. one that is caused by a non-human intelligence)?
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Are there any at all? Or at least are there any that are clearly an actual alien abduction event with real physical evidence and no loopholes, hoaxed elements, doubts, lies and confabulations or possibilities of it being a purely psychological event not created by a non-human intelligence?
With some of the very interesting cases what often happens is that people get a little loopy over time and the original event becomes too defining in their lives and their psychological or personality shifts become so large that they bring doubt upon their original claim (Whitley, Betty, Zanfretta).
I'm also interested in knowing @ufology which AA events you consider credible.
The Darkroom
Skilled Investigator
Ray's claims in his own words on record are "smoking gun" proofs photographically of:
1) Multiple films of Motherships. Same concept as a human aircraft carrier.
2) Multiple films of the Mothership's smaller "carrier craft" that the Mothership contains to probe or explore its targets.
3) Close-up of an Alien ET pilot flying its UFO. This ET is bald with pointy ears.
4) Proof of at least 3 different ET Alien species. I guess this would have to be photographic but not certain.
The Darkroom
Skilled Investigator
Walton and others made money by collecting a prize or reward for such an experience that was advertised and asked for in the National Enquirer before he had his experience. Add-in check fraud, and I don't think he's trustworthy. Here's what George Wingfield wrote about it recently:
George W. continues... Oh, well – I’ll tell you what I think of that although it doesn’t mean to say I’m a total UFO atheist like the late Phil Klass!
Like you I was once prepared to believe that the Travis Walton abduction story from November 1975 might be the real deal unlike so many other tales of alien contact over the last sixty years. I met Travis Walton at a UFO conference in Florida in 1997 and bought his book “Fire in the Sky”. That tells his version of his alleged alien abduction but it leaves out much of what happened before and after the event.
In particular there is no mention of the fact that the National Enquirer newspaper –famous for its sensational and often highly dubious stories-- had offered tens of thousands of dollars to anybody who could positively prove that aliens had visited our planet - in the knowledge that exclusive rights could be worth millions. Travis and his brother Duane were well aware of this and I think their motive in concocting the abduction hoax was to collect this prize money which they certainly succeeded in doing. For an account of what went on at the time and the attempts by both the National Enquirer and APRO (the leading UFO research group, Aerial Phenomena Research Organization) to take control of this case and cover up polygraph test failures by Walton and other members of his logging crew, see:- The Selling of the Travis Walton "Abduction" Story
It looks as if all seven members of Walton’s logging team must have been aware this was a hoax but went along with it to cash in on the prize money. It has been suggested by some that Walton and his brother and/or his friend Mike Rogers may have put on some sort of a stunt involving a bright fake UFO in the forest to deceive the other members of the team but that seems unlikely to me. In any case the National Enquirer paid Walton $2,500 and the other members of the crew split a check for a further $2,500. The total $5,000 was quite a bit of money in 1975 and the Enquirer’s UFO reporter Bob Pratt flew to Arizona to deliver these prize money checks. Travis Walton and other members of the team made a trip with Bob out to where the abduction had supposedly taken place and some of the money was spent on liquor with which the loggers noisily celebrated their win.
A recurring aspect of some of the tales of alien contact or abduction like this is that the abductee --and maybe other witnesses-- subsequently undergo polygraph tests. Usually they will claim that they passed such tests even if they failed or else produced inconclusive results. In this case the fact that Travis Walton had flunked a polygraph examination, paid for by the National Enquirer, and administered by the most experienced lie detector expert in the state of Arizona, John McCarthy, was completely concealed. John McCarthy concluded that Walton was practising "gross deception." APRO (which was promoting Walton's story) and the National Enquirer both concealed this embarrassing fact. Walton later passed a different polygraph test (for which he had adequate time to prepare), but failed a later one on the 2008 TV show Moment of Truth. In reality, if someone is anticipating taking a polygraph exam, and practices for it, they have a very good chance of fooling the examiner.
Travis Walton in his book Fire in the Sky never admits that he failed any of the polygraph tests and he makes no mention of the National Enquirer or their offer of prize money which he and his team won for their “proof” that aliens were visiting our planet. To my mind this is more than an oversight: it’s a deliberate attempt to hide the truth. When I met Travis again recently and expressed these misgivings he airily dismissed my criticism and said that his brother was the one who had dealt with the National Enquirer at the time and he had had no prior knowledge of the $5,000 prize. I suggest this is not true.
Yet again a sensational claim of alien contact looks very much like a carefully thought out hoax. Maybe one should not be too surprised since the many dozens of claims of alien contact starting in the 1950s have never produced any solid evidence for it and one could say that we have simply been dealt hoax after hoax after hoax. Here we go again in 2015 with the bogus Roswell Slides.....
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
If all members of the logging crew cabal were in on the hoax then you would have seen a split in the ranks long ago with other offers to "come clean" for cash. But none have. In fact one crew member claims he's been in contact with aliens and is also an abductee, but not getting much attention. If this was a hoax then it's either all in the family only, with the rest of the crew knowing nothing (only brother & mom are involved with Travis following his return to earth) or it's a real life alien abduction as Travis could not have done this on his own.
ChrisJohnsen
Paranormal Adept
I had always accepted the Travis Walton story at face value and repeated it to friends as a good example of "proof." However, after my correspondence with George in the forum, and reading what he had to say, along with some articles he linked out to, I became much more skeptical of the whole event. It is conceivable (to me) that Travis could have arranged some hoax in the woods in order to fool his co-workers and ultimately claim the National Enquirer prize money, bolstered by a group of hoaxed loggers backing his bogus story to add legitimacy.
I'm not saying that's what I believe happened, I just think, after additional research, a hoax scenario became much more plausible in my thinking.
What I find slightly amusing, and seemingly counterintuitive to my active interest in listening to The Paracast and reading/participating in the forums, is that the more I have listened and read over these years, the more viewpoints I have been exposed to, the more skeptical I have become. I came in thinking I would learn more about the phenomena to back up my pre-conceived notions and the exact opposite has occurred. The more I've been exposed to, the deeper I've gone into this rabbit hole, the less certain I am and the more questions I have. And yet, rather than frustrating, I find the results quite rewarding, in their own stimulating way.
I'm not saying that's what I believe happened, I just think, after additional research, a hoax scenario became much more plausible in my thinking.
What I find slightly amusing, and seemingly counterintuitive to my active interest in listening to The Paracast and reading/participating in the forums, is that the more I have listened and read over these years, the more viewpoints I have been exposed to, the more skeptical I have become. I came in thinking I would learn more about the phenomena to back up my pre-conceived notions and the exact opposite has occurred. The more I've been exposed to, the deeper I've gone into this rabbit hole, the less certain I am and the more questions I have. And yet, rather than frustrating, I find the results quite rewarding, in their own stimulating way.