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Religion and Dinosaurs

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MADMANMIKE said:
..That was all over the place, auntigrav; you acknowledge my point of God being Creation, but then you go off on a bizzare anti-religion tangent as if the two are related somehow....

-Mike <8]
They are related because I only acknowledge that the idea of God is the concept of creation. These semantics are very important in understanding the relationship to the rant against religion. The marketing of these two ideas to people who otherwise would live in much different ways of lower consumption and within more natural limits is the basis of all monotheistic religions which aim to increase their numbers or their influence on others.
Religion is the perfect manufactured product: it is sold as a daily necessity with a regular payment of time or money and the product costs nothing to manufacture while never guaranteeing delivery.
 
auntiegrav said:
Religious arguments are so much fun to watch. You are doing a great job holding your own, Nikki. Keep it up. ;-)

Why thank you -- I blush at your compliment.

auntiegrav said:
As for the idea of spirit, Spirit, and the definition of God:
The idea of God (or gods) is the basic concept of Creation. The development of the monotheistic God is one where someone did some thinking and thought: "Well, if the various gods created various things, then what created the gods themselves?" The answer they came up with was the One True God that is omnipotent. ...... , humanity created the self-creating God to explain this question. If you WANT to believe in the self-creating universe and excuse the disagreement with the law of cause and effect, then you are pretty much bound to either God or Time Travel.

Why isn't a self creating god as much of a paradox as a self creating universe. There is no reason to expect that stuff can not be eternal in one form or another and that resolves the self creating paradox. I also find the idea of stuff reacting in a way we don't understand yet far more plausible than a Omnipotent entity deciding at some point in eternity to 'make him (or her) a universe'

As as side note -- it was interesting that you mentioned Star Trek. One of the movies helped me on my path to atheism. It was the one where the Enterprise ends up in another dimension and they meet 'god'. God needs the Enterprise to escape the dimension. Toward the end of the movie Kirk asks the god-entity "What does God need with a starship?". Clearly the answer is "God doesn't need a starship" It is easy enough to extrapolate that to "What does God need with a universe ?" and just as clearly " God doesn't need a universe" . No one has ever been able to answer that in a way that makes sense to me.

auntiegrav said:
Scientifically, however, if you truly use objective means to evaluate paranormal occurances, then you simply investigate with the tools available, and the data that doesn't fit your tools is left until you have better tools. Just because 'spirit' cannot be explained by current science doesn't mean it is supernatural. I submit that there is nothing that can be 'super' natural because Nature includes everything in the universe.

I totally agree. This is what I was trying to say about spirit. Simply put I think what we call supernatural or paranormal is simply part of the natural order we don't understand yet. Millenia ago an eclipse was viewed as supernatural event. Even everyday occurrences such as sickness or even pregnancy were looked on as something beyond the realm of the natural world. There is no reason to think that as we learn more about the way the universe truly functions, many things we think of as paranormal will not become 'normal'

auntiegrav said:
Religion is just one more way we try to separate humans from nature so that we can justify the havoc we spread as we entrench ourselves in our protected little comfort zone of 'modern life' and 'normalcy'.
We should never have stopped eating the missionaries or the salesmen that followed them.

I would add that religion was also created as a way to explain that which we don't understand. But over the years we learn that lightning is not created by Thor, Pele has nothing to do with volcanoes and the sun comes back every winter solstice whether we celebrate and sacrifice in some manner or not.

I'll pass on the missionary (Try a Little Priest) and the salesmen -- I am a vegetarian you know.

In the end, our experience HAS shown us that there is no 'supernatural' only the natural that we don't understand

Note to Mike -- I am using the term god here as is commonly accepted.
 
it's odd how a religions system that is thousands of years old is discounted out of hand, yet some wacko with any new-age, crazy theory is listened to with open ears.

Funny.
 
UBERDOINK said:
it's odd how a religions system that is thousands of years old is discounted out of hand, yet some wacko with any new-age, crazy theory is listened to with open ears.

Funny.
It's funny how a marketing system that is thousands of years old is not called to task for the same psychological advertising practices that are used by McDonalds and other corporations:

"Get 'em while they're young, keep 'em for life."
"Put bright colors in the windows and music to get their attention."
"Dress up characters in fancy hats and costumes."
"Set up common rituals that become part of everyday life."
"Repeat, repeat, repeat the message."
"Create a culture of inclusion and fear of exclusion."
Ref: "Coercion: why we do what they say." by Douglas Rushkoff
 
UBERDOINK said:
it's odd how a religions system that is thousands of years old is discounted out of hand, yet some wacko with any new-age, crazy theory is listened to with open ears.

Funny.

I'll tell you what's NOT funny - the many millions who have been slaughtered in the name of the religions that enjoy the thousands of years of branding activities, fear-mongering, iron fisted rule over continents, the wholesale brainwashing of many generations of people looking to understand their place in the Universe.

Just because something has been around for a long time, does not automatically mean it's right, or accurate. Brute force needs no justification, it serves to make the few powerful over the many, to maintain power for those who have it.

If you're trying to imply that new ideas are somehow not useful, that new ways of thinking are not productive, then you're missing the Big Picture, IMO.

dB
 
Oberdoink, you might want to reconsider your posting trend at the moment, accusing AuntieGrav of being a "new-age" anything is making you look, well, as compelling as your avatar.

dB
 
David Biedny said:
Just because something has been around for a long time, does not automatically mean it's right, or accurate.

Like Atheism, which has been around along time? Stalin slaughtered millions for example.

When do ideas become invalid? 10 years, 20? or couldn't the past some how help us understand the future?

I don't mean to be contentious, but I do so hate the cartoon-ish light, that people with clear bias's want to paint long standing traditions with.

I'm sure you wouldn't bring up all the hospitals and charities that Christianity has done? why consider that! when it goes against your bias. ;-)
 
David Biedny said:
Oberdoink, you might want to reconsider your posting trend at the moment, accusing AuntieGrav of being a "new-age" anything is making you look, well, as compelling as your avatar.

Well, true, but Mcdonalds as our evil overlords is humorous I think. I mean, when Starbucks is still clearly out there. :-)

My avatar on the other hand, was made by someone you have probably worked with in the past. Amazing artist.
 
Why isn't a self creating god as much of a paradox as a self creating universe.
Because believing in a self-creating god is an act of faith where logic is suspended by choice. Considering that there might be a perpetual recycling cause-effect relationship in the formation of matter from space-time is a means of thoughtful consideration and logical questioning. One requires an act of self-imposed closure, while the other simply says 'maybe' and looks for ways to figure it out.
"What does God need with a starship?". Clearly the answer is "God doesn't need a starship" It is easy enough to extrapolate that to "What does God need with a universe ?" and just as clearly " God doesn't need a universe" . No one has ever been able to answer that in a way that makes sense to me.
The next logical step in this series to me is, "What does the universe need with gods?" Belief CAN be a benefit to the universe if used properly. We can't all know everything all the time that we use to make 'decisions', so we take some actions through considered 'faith' in other people, systems or in our instincts. Any action taken based upon self-imposed blind faith, however, is probably going to end up more consumptive than creative (Evil).

There is no reason to think that as we learn more about the way the universe truly functions, many things we think of as paranormal will not become 'normal'
and the reciprocal: As things we think of as paranormal become understood, then things we think of as normal will be considered 'reality challenged'.
I would add that religion was also created as a way to explain that which we don't understand.
In a conspiratorial sense, explanations of the unknown were used to build societal structure and domination when force alone wasn't enough to control large numbers.
I'll pass on the missionary (Try a Little Priest) and the salesmen -- I am a vegetarian you know.
I didn't know, congratulations. I envy your self-discipline and have much respect for vegetarianism. Sadly, though, I am burdened with keeping down the population of excess animals myself (since predators have been destroyed by humans, some of us take that responsibility). I also just don't have the teeth and time to chew enough vegetables to keep my calorie intake high enough for my farm work. It's the cross I bear. What about vegetarian missionaries?
My niece says, "I don't eat anything with a face."
I responded, "I face the things I eat."
In the end, our experience HAS shown us that there is no 'supernatural' only the natural that we don't understand
That's a good quote. I might borrow it sometime.
 
UBERDOINK said:
Wow, McDonalds theology! You are one of those new age wackos I was mentioning. Everyone open your ears!

;-)

You've got it exactly backward.
It's not McDonalds theology, but Theology Marketing 101

I have a lot of respect for the wisdom of old religions. The problem is that most of the followers of religion don't take a hard look at what they are really doing when they follow the rituals and build the churches and accept the tap water shaken by the man in the pointy hat.
My philosophy might be New Age Wackism, but I am open to real suggestions of how to improve it or question it, which is more than I can say about the thousands of sects and synods which are no more than different flavors of toothpaste; invented not because they do anything different, but because the old formulas were already copyrighted.
The very ironic bit about Christianity is that it is a marketing spin-off of Judaism. Judaism is probably as close as you can get to true Atheism without leaving the capital letter in God behind. Scholarly questioning and understanding are the basis of its tenets, yet modern Christianity is all about fixed tenets and rituals from a single book, set down by a council of questionable integrity and limited diversity.
The effectiveness of McDonalds on Saturday morning television is testament to the effective techniques of Sunday schools on the minds of billions of children.
 
UBERDOINK said:
David Biedny said:
Just because something has been around for a long time, does not automatically mean it's right, or accurate.

Like Atheism, which has been around along time? Stalin slaughtered millions for example.
Stalin didn't slaughter people because he was a godless communist. Stalin slaughtered people because he liked to, and he was an asshole. Hitler slaughtered millions of Jews because HE was an asshole too. A claimed Christian asshole.
When do ideas become invalid? 10 years, 20? or couldn't the past some how help us understand the future?

I don't mean to be contentious, but I do so hate the cartoon-ish light, that people with clear bias's want to paint long standing traditions with.
Christianity has painted its own cartoons, sir. Much like your avatar 'art'. Ideas become invalid when they are replaced by better ideas. The idea of Creativity being better than Consumption is a good idea. Sometimes good ideas are corrupted and used for bad purposes. ("Respect for Creation/creativity" became "Worship the Creator" which became "Pay the Creator's handlers lots of money and go kill all those 'evil' Science-believing Arabs who occupy Jerusalem")
I'm sure you wouldn't bring up all the hospitals and charities that Christianity has done? why consider that! when it goes against your bias. ;-)
I'll bring it up. We don't have a health care system because "Christian" non-profit corporations have co-opted the huge cashflow of insurance and build buildings instead of providing doctors. "Christian" leaders are at this very moment, lobbying against those "evil" ideas of distributed health care and single-payer systems because it would kill their franchises that serve the rich and upper middle class who want all their moles taken off and chemotherapy to extend their useless lives in some twisted idea of a fountain of youth.
"Christian" "Conservatives" work very hard to ensure that we don't end up like Cuba because cheap medicine, organic food and lots of doctors aren't nearly as profitable as restricted (by income) access to doctors, overpriced patented medicines, and junk food-fed rich fools are.
 
UBERDOINK said:
it's odd how a religions system that is thousands of years old is discounted out of hand, yet some wacko with any new-age, crazy theory is listened to with open ears.

Funny.

If age is a determining factor in the validity or correctness of a religion, wicca and pagan religions must be more correct than any form of Christianity. They've been around longer.
 
Paranormal Packrat said:
UBERDOINK said:
it's odd how a religions system that is thousands of years old is discounted out of hand, yet some wacko with any new-age, crazy theory is listened to with open ears.

Funny.

If age is a determining factor in the validity or correctness of a religion, wicca and pagan religions must be more correct than any form of Christianity. They've been around longer.
Sunday's Sally Forth comic had a funny scenario: "Wedding invitations you don't want to receive"
"Don't look directly at the Druids" and Ted says, "I've GOT to remember to bring the camera for that one."
;-)

As for 'correctness', the Wiccan and Pagan worship of the Earth as Mother just might lean toward that assessment. Not only are we what we eat, but we are what our gut bacteria eat for us. We carry part of the Earth mother around in our bodies and would die without that microcosm of soil that is established and conditioned by our contact with the environment. Serotonin is mostly produced through gut cell activity, and people who live in sterile environments become depressed.
FYI ;-)
Find yourself some Wiccans and get dirty...you might see God.
 
UBERDOINK said:
I don't mean to be contentious, but I do so hate the cartoon-ish light, that people with clear bias's want to paint long standing traditions with.

.."What's that you say, Pot?" says the Kettle...


nikki630 said:
It is easy enough to extrapolate that to "What does God need with a universe ?" and just as clearly " God doesn't need a universe" . No one has ever been able to answer that in a way that makes sense to me.

God IS the Universe, the Universe is God. You claim atheism, because you disagree with the church's definition of God; instead of resorting to the spiritual equivalent of going "Nuh-uh!", why not try to find the answers, or perhaps even listen to people when they try to help you do so?

..Apologies if I seem hostile with my posts, I'm not at my best this week; Coping with a broken dream coming true by crushing the living one.. and losing all my important digestive bacteria to this absurd anti-biotic regiment the doctor has me on for my tonsillitis, so my already low seratonin levels have bottomed out.
 
..Oh, I've got to say it a bit more plainly than David; UBERDOINK, that avatar fits your attitude in this thread splendidly.
 
Hitler was an asshole too. A claimed Christian asshole.

If you study history, Hitler was a pagan, and hated Christianity according to his own speeches and documents. Its a common misconception that he was Christian because people don't read more deeply, a study of Nazi propaganda will show clearly, and without doubt how his motivations were all very Pagan, with New Age "enlightenment" styled roots.

Christianity has painted its own cartoons, sir. Much like your avatar 'art'. Ideas become invalid when they are replaced by better ideas.


Who's the arbiter of what is better? Someone that has taken lots of acid and has seen "god"? or a long standing tradition that has survived the test of time?

I'll bring it up. We don't have a health care system because "Christian" non-profit corporations have co-opted the huge cashflow of insurance and build buildings instead of providing doctors. "Christian" leaders are at this very moment, lobbying against those "evil" ideas of distributed health care and single-payer systems because it would kill their franchises that serve the rich and upper middle class

What a crazy statement!
Show us proof for that please, show us that its the Christian church that is stopping universal health care.... for that matter, show us again why universal health care, (as it has been outlined in the past) would be a better system?
Just because it's cheaper?
Then why doesn't Europe have the most advanced and best hospitals? Why does the US still lead the world in Medical technological advancements?

Your bias screams out that you don't have a balanced view of the world, you have a vendetta.

and hey people, I LOVE MY AVATAR!!! :-P
 

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auntiegrav said:
Hitler slaughtered millions of Jews because HE was an asshole too. A claimed Christian asshole.

..Modern neo-nazi's often claim Christianity, but not Hitler.

..Hitler was a jew; he hated them thanks to his crazy mother; his father came to his senses and abandoned the insane woman when Adolph was little, and he grew up with his mother blaming the man's heritage for all her problems. Add to that the generally prevalent antisemitism and you have a recipe for disaster.

..I have 300+ years of pure German Heritage in Missouri, so I've payed a bit of attention to the fatherland's history.

-Mike <8]
 
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