The Myth Of The Myth Of Flying Saucers.

[pixelsmith]

in my opinion Posey is adding to the noise and his tales are the science fiction that he was forbidden to read.

 

[tyder001]

First I don't know how you guys even get through a Sitchin book.zzzzzz...Oh, wait I'm awake now. But, makes me wonder if I'm missing some great writing (true or not) by not staying with it. I don't think Sitchin is a liar in that "he" believes what he writes. I also don't think Posey is lying and I feel he has had some experiences that are intense and real. His translation of them however, is his own. Just as I translate my experiences through the lens (as do we all) of my life's journey. Anyway, I'll hang up and listen now.

 

[trainedobserver]

I don't think Sitchin is a liar in that "he" believes what he writes.

Well, the languages Sitchin dealt with are known and understood. Sitchin claimed to know how to translate them when it has been pointed out by scholars and academics that he actually mistranslated them. I think anyone can prove that to themselves easily enough without becoming an expert in ancient languages or wading through the entire body of his work. I am fairly certain that the very real translation problems were pointed out to him repeatedly during his lifetime. You have to wonder why he never revised his work.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Posey, you have reminded me about the civil rights movement and as much as I love the USA, I still find it hard to believe in your lifetime you were not allowed on certain buses or to use certain restrooms etc.
In the second world war too, black men were expected to go and fight for the rights of people in other countries who were free to use any facilities they chose, yet black men were banded together in all black regiments and when these brave men returned after the war, it was back to a modern country that treated them like 2nd class people.

I don't accept any argument that the south had a different 'culture' regarding racial mixing. To think that in one part of the USA, a couple like Barney and Betty Hill, could be married yet travel some distance south and things would have been very different. I cannot understand how all these different states were under the same President and Federal agencies yet what was acceptable in one state was the polar opposite in another state.

As Germany has it's shame regarding the Nazi party, and the United Kingdom was heavily involved in the slave trade in the past, the USA has it's shame in the way it took so long to treat different races equally.
Anyway, I don't want to sound down on the US, because I have worked there, holidayed there, served with US armed forces in excercises there and have seen a good deal of the country. It is always the country I will look to after my own for it's contribution to culture and science I appreciate and I have many good friends from the USA. Fantastic country!

 

[Posey Gilbert]

You are aware of that Butch Witkowski lied about his background and has a criminal record that includes fraud aren't you? Please read Been Had ... Again and the criminal records posted here in the forum. He has been proven to be a liar.

Why are you are unimpressed with Heiser I wonder? It couldn't be because he lacks the education, experience, or fails to demonstrate that he can back his translations up where Sitchin (or now his supporters) could not.

No, it's because Dr. Michael S. Heiser is an American Christian author. His books include The Façade and The Bible Code Myth so it is ovious he has an axe to grind with any one presenting a non Christian view on Biblical matters, maybe that is why he has problems with Zecharia Sitchin a linguistic scholar & historian of ancient Hebrew, Sumerian, Akkadian, and other early Mesopotamian civilizations.
Could that be why in all academia he was the only one they could find whom would derive Sitchun's work?
Maybe that's why it took him so long to speak up, or could it have been it was the chance to get in a world wide telecast that plucked up his courage?
How unscholarly if that is true, how ever it takes more than simple gossip and innuendo for me to make up my mind about anyone.
Plus how can you not take flights of fantasy when you are talking about an unproven thing like Biblical History?
Isn't the wholw thing about a fantasy, or a myth?
But understand this my mind is not closed on these matters as you can see there's very little that I forget about things I deem important or interesting.
I like these controversial viewpoints but only because they offer possible answers to some of my eclectic collection of unanswered questions.

Well, as I think I've been trying to point out here, what you present in this thread as real investigation into the UFO and Alien Abduction Phenomena includes known frauds and dubious debunked sources. As a work of fiction loosely based on current UFO myth, Taken couldn't have been any worse.


As I said before my mentioning of Taken was about how much time it wasted on a corny piece of science fiction instead of using that time on true UFO and Alien Abduction Phenomenal Investigation




I want you to be aware Posey, that in bringing up the fallacious and mythical nature of Witkowski's and Sitchin's claims in this thread, I have not once questioned your encounter claims or the reality of UFOs in general. However, you seem to be lumping your experience with the tales of liars like Witkowski and validating it through the highly questionable pseudo-history of Sitchin. Why on Earth do you want to attempt to do that?


Thanks for the links, I found them interesting, but I listened to the other link you provided me and Butch stated he's hired lawyers to file a law suit against those behind these claims against him, so the jury is out on this case.
I choose to believe a person is innocent until proven guilty.
If I may I will add here another of my true experiences, sorry, but maybe it will help you to understand me.
I will change the name of the person it is about because he was and still is a good family friend.

Barry Kliener was actually my brother Ralph's' classmate, but because my mother assigned me the job of looking out for Ralph, and my younger siblings,
Thus all my friend were really Ralph's friends, they all being younger than me I also considered them under my charge.
Barry became one of our closes friends.
Mom called him her nephew, and he was treated as family, and we were treated the same by his family.
One summer day Ralph and I spent the whole day at Barry's house horsing around with my tape recorder singing as best and as worse we could the pop songs of the day.
A week later as we were going in for the night (Lost in space was coming on that night.)
Barry told us he was going to pickup some new Marvel comic books before going in.
The next day, and few days after Barry didn't come down to the playground but nothing was considered strange about this, and no one thought it as unusual kids got sick, or went to camp, or on vacation, etc., all the time.
After a week, worried Ralph and I went up to see Barry.
Mrs. Kliener came to the door her voice sounded horse and her eyes were red and swollen we could see she had been crying which really scared us.
She told us that Barry had vanished Wednesday night last week, she called the police that night and was told as it was done in those days she had to wait a week before she could file a missing persons report and after waiting the required time she called the police department again to report Barry's disappearance,
It was then she found out Barry had been arrested on charges of rape and robbery, and had been in jail for all that time.
Shocked I asked, "When did this happen?"
"Barry is with us all the time, somebody's lying." Ralph said.
"They said he was identified by the victims as he was walking up on Washington Avenue." she said, "She and her mother were in a police car, they both said it was Barry"
"When did they say this was?" I asked.
"They said that it happened Sunday before last."she said.
"Where did Barry say he was that day?" Ralph asked.
"He said he didn't remember." she answered.
"Two Sundays ago?" I said as was trying to remember what we had done that Sunday.
"Barry has been with us every Sunday this month." Ralph said puzzled,
"We haven't been off this block once this month."
Then it hit me.
"Two Sundays ago me and Ralph were up here all day because it was raining." I said,
I had my tape recorder, we were goofing around in Barry's room all day, I got the tape at home."
"Barry goes to court on Monday will you boys testify to that?" she asked.
Both Ralph and I agreed.
We went to court, we testified, and over the protests and tears of the two victims, Barry left a free man.
But wait that is not the end of this.
These were the days of Mayor Linseys' Fun City Program, and later that summer there was a performance of Valpone in the JHS.55 school yard.
After it was over and they were breaking down the stage Barry jumped up on the stage in front of me and scanned the crowds,
I thought he was looking for me and called to him but it seemed he could not hear me above the noise even though I was at his feet.
Then he pulled a pack of cigarettes from his shirt pocket, lit it and began to smoke, turned and walked backstage.
Barry did not then or now smoke.
The police started breaking up the crowd and I was hurried out of the yard, and started down the hill of 170th street.
I saw Ralph and Barry standing at the bottom of the hill at the corner of Park Avenue and 170th street they were scanning the crowd for me.
Ralph and Barry liked the sun I liked the shade so of course we had gotten separated in the crowd as we came into the yard.
"When did you start smoking?" I asked Barry.
"You knowI'm hot stuff, I am always smoking," he said with a laugh.
"No, you know what I mean, I just now saw you on the stage smoking a cigarette"
"What the hell are you talking about?" Ralph suddenly interrupted,
"Me and Barry have been standing down here since the play was over. We were the first to leave."
The point of this long but true tale, is that if not for the tape we had made Barry would have been imprisoned for that bastards crime.
In truth if that guy would have robbed me, you could not have convinced me, it had not been Barry either.
Since then I don't make any judgments about the guilt or innocence of a person, until all the evidence is in.
You nor I know the truth in these matters, records can be changed, papers can be faked, so I reserve my judgments, and share the info that I think is worth looking at.



I personally would like to avoid being entangled in or adding to the UFO myth that is created by such people. I would rather get to the reality of the UFO phenomena. I know that I won't get there entertaining the UFO myth being generated by known frauds, hoaxers, fantasy writers and confidence men.



I agree, but I also know the veracity of my experiences is not hinged to or on peoples beliefs pro or con.
I am the only one that knows the truth to my claims, if I had not experienced them myself and not had witnesses, videos, tapes, and evidence to prove them to me, honestly I'd think I was crazy or lying too.


Separating Signal from Noise means being able to filter out the myth being promoted by various individuals and organizations to get to the real UFO phenomena. By definition that means we have to be discriminating and reject the noise.

As you know I've had sixty years of experience with this phenomena actually going on sixty one years of dealing with this stuff, and guess what.
I still haven't got a damned clue as to what "They"really are, where "They" really come from, or why "They" really are here.
I think everyone has a piece to this puzzle.
I give listen to everyone that wants to speak about it, and take from it what I think is useful or makes sense to me.
Believe this crap and chocolates are the same color but I don't have to swallow it to know which is which.
Like you I hate the stuff that I seen and heard over my many years of dealing with this stuff.
I can really count how many groups I have been bounced out of because I won't eat the chocolates or drink the Kool Aid.
Just this year I was booted out of a group because I thought Dolores Cannon was full of it and actually doing harm to people.
I don't believe in becoming the Thought Police.
But when it comes to doing things at can hurt people, that's where my tolerance ends.
In the thirty years I've been public, I have met and personally know or knew the charlatans and those they hoodwinked and damaged.
As for Butch I had first heard of human mutilation from my MUFON interviewer Antonio Huneeus , and later read about them in Jacques Vallée's works.

So as far as I know these were real events, and or real phenomena.
If it was a hoax a lot more than Butch was taken in by it.
If this was to happen to any of you, until I knew the truth, I'd be the same way about you.

​

​

 

[trainedobserver]

Could that be why in all academia he was the only one they could find whom would derive Sitchun's work? ...how ever it takes more than simple gossip and innuendo for me to make up my mind about anyone.

Heiser is hardly Sitchin's only critic! How could his critisim of Sitchin's translations be based on gossip and innuendo? Have you dug into the problems with Sitchin that Heiser outlines on his website at all?

Posey, the fact that you want to take the word of a guy who graduated from the London School of Economics, University of London, with a major in economic history over the guy with a M.A. and Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and Ancient Semitic Languages from the University of Wisconsin-Madison in the area of said ancient languages, it tells me much more about you than any childhood story you might care to relate.

Maybe that's why it took him so long to speak up, or could it have been it was the chance to get in a world wide telecast that plucked up his courage? How unscholarly if that is true,

A transparent ad hominem attack. Can you question Heiser's education, knowledge, or expertise in ancient languages? Of course not, thus that sort of thing there.

Thanks for the links, I found them interesting, but I listened to the other link you provided me and Butch stated he's hired lawyers to file a law suit against those behind these claims against him, so the jury is out on this case. I choose to believe a person is innocent until proven guilty.

Butch Witkowski's life as he presents it is a myth. As far as being guilty, see the criminal records in that thread.

1. A multiple convicted FELON in PA for....guess what? Fraud.
2. And, that he NEVER was employed as a Municipal or State Police Officer ANYWHERE in the entire Commonwealth/State of PA. He NEVER was a homicide detective, etc., etc...
3. And, that he was drafted into the U.S. Marine Corps in 1967 and stayed at Parris Island, SC for two weeks before being generally discharged for "failure to adapt." He NEVER served in the USMC and NEVER served in the Vietnam Conflict. He NEVER was a USMC Gunnery Sergeant; NEVER led men into combat; NEVER was at Khe Sanh; NEVER was at the 1968 Tet Offensive; NEVER was at the U.S. Embassy in Saigon, ETC., ETC., ETC.
4. He has NO documented formal education and no documented specialized training in any discipline. There is no record that he ever held a rotary or fixed wing pilot's license (any rating), SCUBA certification, etc., etc...
...
CASUALTY CONSULTANTS INC
John R. Bainbridge Jr. CFI, CFE, BCFE
Licensed Private Investigator

This clown (Witkowski) originally told me he was retired from the USMC with the rank of E-7. (Gunnery Sgt.) I have a copy of his discharge and it shows he was court martialed and tossed from the USMC while in Boot Camp. (basic training)

Good grief. That's all I have to say about your lack of discernment here Posey.

If I may I will add here another of my true experiences, sorry, but maybe it will help you to understand me. I will change the name of the person it is about because he was and still is a good family friend."

Your experiences have no relevance in the effort to assess the reliability of Witkowski's or Sitchin's claims, the wisdom of incorporating them into your world-view or promoting them. Your willingness to embrace dubious and shady sources and promote them tells me so much more.

 

[pixelsmith]

Good grief. That's all I have to say about your lack of discernment here Posey.

I like Posey, I enjoy reading his stories but IMO they are definitely NOT chocolate...

 

[trainedobserver]

It doesn't really matter what evidence is brought to bear on the dubious claims of people like Witkowski, Imbrogno, Sitchin, Dean, Stone, Schmitt, Cooper, or Lear (just to name a few) their stories have already entered into the UFO Myth proper and are unlikely to be dislodged from the collective psyche of Pop Ufology. It's a losing battle.

 

[tyder001]

Not to get into the middle of the back and forth here. But, I found a great review that Michael Heiser did on Nick Redferns book. It Nick actually takes part in the discussion after the review. Gave me a new appreciation for the work Nick has done and the reality (thanks to Heiser) of the bad theology some of the "demonic alien" people use. Anyway, here's the link if anybody is interested.
UFO Religions » Review of Nick Redfern’s Final Events

 

[Posey Gilbert]

I like Posey, I enjoy reading his stories but IMO they are definitely NOT chocolate...

Hahahahahah!​

Good one Pixie.​

​

 

[Posey Gilbert]

It doesn't really matter what evidence is brought to bear on the dubious claims of people like Witkowski, Imbrogno, Sitchin, Dean, Stone, Schmitt, Cooper, or Lear (just to name a few) their stories have already entered into the UFO Myth proper and are unlikely to be dislodged from the collective psyche of Pop Ufology. It's a losing battle.

Believe me my friend none of what you say to me is lost on me.
I write back not so much in rebuttal, but to show you things from my point of view.
Is not a forum suppose to be a sharing of opinions, and information?
I speak from experience not from things that I read in books.
I came here looking for answers not praise, or acceptance.
I came here knowing I would be laughed at, abused, harassed by some Philip Klass wannabe pismire and in the end rejected.
The same things I have been through for the last twenty plus years since I went public.
So boo hoo big deal that's the way of the world, you take your damned lumps and go the hell on.
If you came here thinking you were going to change the world of ufology you are fooling yourself.
I hear the same schizzer today that I heard in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and here it is still being recycled in the 2000s.
The most you can do is share your knowledge and hope you help someone, and expect a kick in the ass as you leave, and expect to go through the same thing again with the next group you enter, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next, and so on.
People, well the Believers at least. don't want to know the truth.
They want to hear pretty little stories about angels, light beings, and those big blonde blue eyed Nordics that are comming here with only our best interests in mind.
Yeah right, you best hope they had a good meal before they left home.

​

Believers, Infidels, Blind Chickens And Broken Clocks​

​

​

 

[Posey Gilbert]

Posey, you have reminded me about the civil rights movement and as much as I love the USA, I still find it hard to believe in your lifetime you were not allowed on certain buses or to use certain restrooms etc.
In the second world war too, black men were expected to go and fight for the rights of people in other countries who were free to use any facilities they chose, yet black men were banded together in all black regiments and when these brave men returned after the war, it was back to a modern country that treated them like 2nd class people.

I don't accept any argument that the south had a different 'culture' regarding racial mixing. To think that in one part of the USA, a couple like Barney and Betty Hill, could be married yet travel some distance south and things would have been very different. I cannot understand how all these different states were under the same President and Federal agencies yet what was acceptable in one state was the polar opposite in another state.

As Germany has it's shame regarding the Nazi party, and the United Kingdom was heavily involved in the slave trade in the past, the USA has it's shame in the way it took so long to treat different races equally.
Anyway, I don't want to sound down on the US, because I have worked there, holidayed there, served with US armed forces in excercises there and have seen a good deal of the country. It is always the country I will look to after my own for it's contribution to culture and science I appreciate and I have many good friends from the USA. Fantastic country!

As usual you are right on point, but understand me I love my country too.
I just wish it would live up to its potential, and and not as the New World Gestapo.

 

[Posey Gilbert]

Heiser is hardly Sitchin's only critic! How could his critisim of Sitchin's translations be based on gossip and innuendo? Have you dug into the problems with Sitchin that Heiser outlines on his website at all?

Posey, the fact that you want to take the word of a guy who graduated from the London School of Economics, University of London, with a major in economic history over the guy with a M.A. and Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and Ancient Semitic Languages from the University of Wisconsin-Madison in the area of said ancient languages, it tells me much more about you than any childhood story you might care to relate.



A transparent ad hominem attack. Can you question Heiser's education, knowledge, or expertise in ancient languages? Of course not, thus that sort of thing there.



Butch Witkowski's life as he presents it is a myth. As far as being guilty, see the criminal records in that thread.





Good grief. That's all I have to say about your lack of discernment here Posey.



Your experiences have no relevance in the effort to assess the reliability of Witkowski's or Sitchin's claims, the wisdom of incorporating them into your world-view or promoting them. Your willingness to embrace dubious and shady sources and promote them tells me so much more.

Once again my friend, you have misunderstood me, seems we need a language scholar here too.
My tale about Barry that was to show you how I think and why I think as I do.
It had nothing to do with Sitchin's or Butch, that had to do solely with me.
Understand me I have no problem with what you say you are entitled to your own thoughts and I do not and I will not chastise you about them.

Your thoughts are your own and you are free to express them to me that is your right.
But, until you walk a mile in my shoes you should not judge me, in as much as I do not judge you.
Is it possible that you know things that I do not?
Of course you can, you've walked a path that I have not, and so I give listen to the things you say, I welcome your thoughts.
By the same reasoning I've walked a path that you have not, ergo I should know things that you do not know.

As a student in high school when I was being taught about evolution and extinction of the many species on Earth I raised my hand and asked in all innocence,
"Teacher, where did we come from?"
An uncomfortable laugh swept through the room and she kind of blushed and said,
"Posey you are too old not to know the answer to that question."
"No" I said "I mean where did we come from Mankind as a species?
It's like we aren't from this planet. "
"Why does everything else go along with nature and we are the only things that goes against it?"
I asked, "How could we evolve so differently from everything else on the planet?
Why would gold become more important than food to monkeys?
How could we go from being a part of nature to living outside of nature?
Wouldn't we have extincted ourselves before we got to this point if we evolved this way naturally?
How could we evolve here, and be this way?"
My questions were answered with but a smile and simple shrug and we continued on.

And that's the way it has always been when I ask those that should know the answer to these simple questions for an explanation.
Thats all I ever got from my suppose to be teachers a stupid ass smile and a shrug then ignored, or scolded.
As long as you follow the conventional theories its fine, accept what we say and don't ask questions or we'll right letters to your parents complaining about you having too much curiosity, and asking too many questions.
So you set out to find the answers for yourself and spend your free time and your summers in the library only to find the same old shit in every book but no answers.

Then you come across a book that in the first few flips of the pages answers those questions for you, and suddenly all the crap man does, not knowing why he does it, starts to fall into place, suddenly your tormented world makes sense, but those who make a living off parroting the outdated and antiquated books start feeling threatened and rally and becry,
"Fowl, fowl, oh woe is we, woe is we, they are actually learning something, he's giving them the answers we could not, why we'll loose our plushy do nothing jobs, silence him with your shouts, misdirect the public with your accusations, give them the blinded truth, quickly, quickly now, go brake out the exlax!!!!!!"
When the answers don't come from the conventional it's time to look at the unconventional.

Conventional Science once said.
1.Iron wheels on iron tracks couldn't possibly work.
2.The human body could not bare to go beyond 25 miles an hour, why if a train was to travel at more than 25 miles an hour all the people would be thrown to the back and crushed against the walls.
3.A heavier than air machine will never fly.
4.Man has reached the limits with steam power.
Where would we be without the Unconventionalist?
Not on the Internet that's for sure.

How is it that my experiences have no relevance in the effort to assess the reliability of Witkowski's or Sitchin's claims?
My experiences qualify me more than most my friend, I know what you and they can only guess at, that being, yes we are and have been visited by things from some where other than Earth.
And being that they have been sketched on cave walls or written about on ancient text and scrolls as long as man has been recording things he had seen in his day to day environment.
That means they were here back then too.
Thus Sitchin's interpretations fall closer to the truth than anything else I've read about or was taught in school.
Now as for Butch's, and Phil Imbrognos records true I never investigated them, nor will I, they can't invalidate what I know to be true.

Your beliefs my friend may be changed by all that rigmarole, but my experiences can't.
Although I truly wish they could, I'd sleep better at night then, but it is what it is.
I don't know their lives or lies, but I do know the truth, we are being visited and some of them really don't like us.
They think we stink, and that we are stupid and crazy filthy things that are killing their Mother.
And I meant that "Their Mother"why they haven't done us in yet, I do not know.
Maybe it's because we are of the same Mother, and via that fact we are their younger siblings.
So what Butch is talking about is true, though it may be the only thing he's ever said that may be true.
As for Phil I lived 32 years in the South Bronx not too far from the Hudson River so I witness the Hudson Valley UFOs, so I know that to be a true, and ongoing event.
So no matter what muck and bile is raked up and smeared on these men to me it has no meaning or is of any consequence to what I know to be true.


So sorry but these peoples accusations and opinions, truthfully really don't mean much to me.
"Opinions are like ass holes, everyone has one, and most of the time they are full of shit."

​

As I once was praising my sister Theresa for taking care of the ​

elderly and dying, she stopped me mid sentence and said,​

"Butch all the angels are in Heaven"​

Now ain't that the truth?​

​

THE SIN OF THE GODS​

The NWO And The Return Of The Gods​

http://templeoftheinfidel.com/Why_they_don%27t_land.mov​

​

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I am going to weigh in here quickly with a single point. While it is certainly true that anyone who has deliberately misled over their qualifications and their background can never expect to be taken seriously I also think that a criminal background does not necessarily preclude being correct in other matters.
The thing about Phil Imbrogno, who I know little about admittedly, is that even if he lied about his education, it does not follow that all his work into the paranormal was bogus. Yes, he will always have a hard time getting anyone to take him seriously again but the one thing does not have to follow the other.

I'm kind of on the fence with this type of situation. I know countless people who have lied in their CV's (Resume's) and I know people with a criminal past.
Many of these people have gone onto non-criminal lives and done well in their chosen jobs etc.

As for these writers mentioned by Posey and then T.O, I just do not know enough about them to make a judgement about their work. I will say that of course they cannot expect people to ever forget their real qualifications or criminal pasts and they should never expect to be taken seriously.
My point is just that it is possible to have a past you regret and to go on and do good work?

 

[trainedobserver]

The thing about Phil Imbrogno, who I know little about admittedly, is that even if he lied about his education, it does not follow that all his work into the paranormal was bogus.
...
My point is just that it is possible to have a past you regret and to go on and do good work?

I disagree in the most extreme sense possible. I am sure any law enforcement or ex-law enforcement folks will tell you that you cannot rely on anything a proven liar tells you. To do so is perilous. Imbrogno's work is complete trash now and should be treated as such. Butch W.'s criminal activity has been in the area of FRAUD for Pete's sake. I would say anything the man says should be regulated to the ash can. I'm just close minded and opinionated that way I guess.

 

[Posey Gilbert]

I am going to weigh in here quickly with a single point. While it is certainly true that anyone who has deliberately misled over their qualifications and their background can never expect to be taken seriously I also think that a criminal background does not necessarily preclude being correct in other matters.
The thing about Phil Imbrogno, who I know little about admittedly, is that even if he lied about his education, it does not follow that all his work into the paranormal was bogus. Yes, he will always have a hard time getting anyone to take him seriously again but the one thing does not have to follow the other.

I'm kind of on the fence with this type of situation. I know countless people who have lied in their CV's (Resume's) and I know people with a criminal past.
Many of these people have gone onto non-criminal lives and done well in their chosen jobs etc.

As for these writers mentioned by Posey and then T.O, I just do not know enough about them to make a judgement about their work. I will say that of course they cannot expect people to ever forget their real qualifications or criminal pasts and they should never expect to be taken seriously.
My point is just that it is possible to have a past you regret and to go on and do good work?

Once again you are right on point.
For years my father was an abusive alcoholic, but we never went naked, hungry, or homeless, and every morning he got up and went to work,
When not drinking he was the most kindest person you'd ever meet.
He'd bring boxes of doughnuts home every Friday for the least fortunate kids in the neighborhood and have us give them out, so we'd know what it was like to have and to share.
He was never really a bad guy, it was just that damned alcohol.
Though he was once a hell raiser one day he stopped drinking, joined a church and never went back, 2007 he died 45 years sober.
During the late 60s all the after school centers and programs were inexplicably closed down then suddenly drugs like opium, and heroin was flooded in to our neighborhoods.
My older brother Chuck was just 13 years old when he fell victim to addiction.
Buy the time we realized it he'd stolen damned near everything of value from the house.
One night as he set, with his back to me, nodding on the side of his bed, I lay on my bed watching him wondering why he would take something that would affect him like that?
I was asking what would make him want to get like that, how did it make him feel?
"Don't like what you see do you?" he suddenly said not turning to look at me.
"No, I don't." I said startled that he even knew I was awake and watching him.
"Don't do this man," he said,
"Leave this shit alone, the first high is a nice high man but you only get that high once.
You'll never get it again, you just begin to need it after that, and you'll do anything to get it. Butch please, don't follow me, leave this shit alone!"
He ended up spending almost 50 of his 60 years of life in and out of jail after that night.
During the times he was out he stole everything that was important to me, and though I got pissed at him, every time he went to jail, his words came to me and kept me out of King Heroin's grasp.
2010 he died 5 years drug free, he was never really a bad guy it was just those damned drugs.
My point to this is you don’t know why people do what they do, or what they will do in the future.
No one is an angel not you or I.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Strange world eh Posey - my own older brother died at 29 because he took a drug while drunk.

T.O - I think you are being a little harsh. I don't know about Witkowski (I know about him faking military and police service, I think he is too far gone) but with Imbrogno, I thought he was only guilty of faking educational quals. I am playing Devil's advocate in that he may have just done that because he felt inferior to some of his contemporaries or he thought mainstream science would take his paranormal work more seriously.
The thing is, people can have varied reasons for making up a history that is better than their own.
Even though I am not in any way religious, I would probably even think myself that someone who was a bad drunk, got sober and became religious, may indeed be able to do honest work, even though they would always have to carry their past round their necks.

I can almost guarrantee that we all know people who have pasts they wish to hide etc but in the present seem to be honest, normal people.

As for these guys in the paranormal field, they probably have completely pissed in the pool, but the truth that people can come to regret something in their past, and move on from that, still holds IMO.

 

[tyder001]

While I do agree that we all (I know I have) justify or have justified our actions that were less then totally honest. It is still troubling that Imbrogno went out of his way to promote a lie he didn't even have to promote. To be honest if it were just "I have a Degree" or I worked on the space shuttle in 1980 then I could easily say "what the heck." But, the dude claimed stolen valor and I would say look up some of the discussion on that in these forums. His record is not 'Oh, I made a mistake" His record appears to be that he isn't well aquainted with the truth on any level. Now, I don't know "Butch" and actually I don't really dig into these folks background the way some on here do. I personally take everything ufo and paranormal with a grain of salt. I put more stock in my own life experience than I do in stories of lights in the sky. I also think there are plenty of honest scientist such as Sheldrake and Pin Lomel and Michael Grosso along with the late John Mack and Ian Stevenson to at least give creedence to the search for the paranomal outside of a test tube. I do understand what Posey is saying. I've had certain life experience that absolutely tells me that materialism is a dead end when looking for the truth. Nobody, no matter how many experts they quote can change that. Once, you've seen a white crow then it will never matter again that the "experts" say they are all absolutely black. However, only insane people never question their own experiences and world view. I've worked with some very troubled folks and the most "insane" ones were the most sure of their own sense of reality and rightness. But, I hasten to add I am not a psychiatrist and I am not claiming any "expert" opinion here. I just think people like Van Daniken and Sitchin and Greer and Lear have their own agenda. I also think people like Randi and Klass and Shchermer have their own agenda and all of them will fight like hell to promote their worldview. After all they are the rightous trying to save us from either the evil alien overlords or the illusion that we are actually beings with a spiritual purpose and destiny beyond a cosmic accident. I salute all of them. They are so much better than me in that I question everything. I am a true skeptic and believe me that isn't easy. I can't run over to the church or the 'free thinkers" society and get a pat on the back. I can't call my local Mufon group and discuss how much "I know" about "them" and the conspiracy to enslave mankind. I just muddle along and pray my prayers and curse the idiocy of everyday life while maintaining hope and belief and agnosticim all at the same time. Oh well, I'm rambling now.

 

[trainedobserver]

T.O - I think you are being a little harsh. I don't know about Witkowski (I know about him faking military and police service, I think he is too far gone) but with Imbrogno, I thought he was only guilty of faking educational quals. I am playing Devil's advocate in that he may have just done that because he felt inferior to some of his contemporaries or he thought mainstream science would take his paranormal work more seriously.

Imbrogno is guilty of stolen valor as well. Imbrogno may very well be a pathological liar. There seems to be quite a few of those in this field. I think the reluctance of UFO buffs and fans of the paranormal to, as Don Ecker put so well, sweep the trash out has consigned the subject of UFOs to the status of a carnival side show. The field is littered with garbage that continues to trip up each succeeding generation. We have to reject these liars, confidence men, and absolute losers who make this field a laughing stock and a hiss. I'm not looking for the fiction, dreams, or delusions these clowns peddle.

There is no moving on for pathological liars, confidence men, and the pretenders who would steal your trust, trample on your goodwill, and destroy the reputation of your field of interest.

 

[stonehart]

This is science not magic Posey. You have paranormal experiences. I have technological ones. I am here to tell you that the science behind transistors, semiconductors, and VLSI is well understood. I have worked in numerous roles for Data General , Convex Computer Corporation (Supercomputers), Hewlett Packard, and Ratheon. I have done everything from system to component level troubleshooting in manufacturing and R&D environments. I have worked with the guys who design the VLSI components for supercomputers and systems themselves. The science is well understood as well as where it came from and largely where it is going to wind up. I have experienced these things first hand Posey.

I personally do not think that the back-engineering of a significantly advanced or significantly different technology is even remotely possible. Whatever powers and levitates mile long airframes and propels them at fantastic speeds with instantaneous acceleration is probably several orders above any back-engineering attempts. The analogy of giving an iPad to someone in th Middle Ages for example is a good one. It would take centuries to understand even the basic principles behind it much less replicate it if ever. The most likely influence that UFOs and their technology has had on our technological development would be inspiration. The idea that something is possible lends to human creativity. I do not think that semiconductor technology was inspired by captured saucers however, far from it.

This I agree with and I would also propose that even "IF" the powers that be have got their hands on any advanced non human technology who is to say that the line of development by these "Alien" others was the same as ours?

My point is that would we even understand that what we were looking at was a communication device to underscore the I-Pad analogy?

And even if we did the task of reproducing the same device from an engineers point of view is simply mind numbing to say the least.

The point that most of these "Back engineering" pundits miss is that not only do you have to understand the device but also all the steps taken to reach that level of technology and the manufacturing required to produce it as well. This means you must understand what every component in the circuit is there for, or indeed if it is a circuit at all by any human understanding of the concept. Then you must either reproduce that component or find an analog one that humans already produce that either works out right or could be modified to work the same.
This is just the tip of the iceberg believe me the task my not be totally impossible but it may as well be when you get down to the nuts and bolts of components and materials technology.

I would also like to add that the "Well we back engineered Nazi Tech" is not an argument at all.

Why?

Well the principals of say a jet engine or a rocket engine were in fact already understood to a good degree.
This made a back engineering attempt a reasonable proposition, not to mention that the scientists who worked on these projects were available as well to help produce the same product again. Now add to this the concept of mass production being understood and that the subject of back engineering was of a terrestrial nature the task is not as hard as it would other wise look.

The disclaimer I will add at the end here is this:

Even if we do not understand the technology by way of how it was made we may stumble upon the concept of what it was meant to do. As such in time we could produce a device that performs a similar task could we not?

If this is what is meant by back engineering then maybe it is possible but bear in mind that even understanding what the device itself is for to start with could be an insanely difficult task on its own.