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The Official Paracast Political Thread! — Part Three

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What about foreign autos made in U.S. plants? I've owned cars from Honda, Kia and VW that were made in the U.S. since 2002, and I did not perceive any less quality than cars built in the home countries of these brands. Reviewers evidently didn't either, and that includes Consumer Reports magazine, which is highly critical.
But how would we know as consumers? We don't have that much of an arc of experience, it seems to me, to be able to state unequivocally that such cars are equal. For example, my VW - as great as it was, and it was truly a great car (I will miss it) - had been having an odd problem with pick-up - erratic, unpredictable - for just over a year. Service on it was terrible - knowledge regarding the problem seemed minimal. Apparently fixed, yet the snafu continued - why? Why such lack of knowledge, lack of pride in doing a job well? There is an endemic lack of pride in one's labor in the US imo - that covers the service industry. Just my opinion. Lots of reasons for it. Complicated.
 
Look, I wish everybody could have a nice, stable career. Even if they didn't have a fancy education. If the world were a meritocracy and everybody got a decent living for working hard. But that's not our world.

Those manufacturing jobs for life aren't coming back. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. There are better jobs.
It is true. Totally agree - and as one person who experienced working in those factories, no one should want to go back to those back-breaking, brain-numbing work days as wage-slaves.

People are not taking the bull by the horns. It's not about manufacturing jobs 'coming back'. There are so many needs in every community that can be covered only by local enterprise. I am thinking of the community truck gardens in Detroit, for example. Richard Wolff (the Marxist economist) talks about democracy in the workplace and how to recover control and command of one's economic life in cooperation with others at the local level. Massive change can and is taking place where worker cooperatives are organized. We are in a different time and place - the authoritarianism of the industrial model is beyond us.

EconoMinute: Democratic Economic System
TEXT: "Published on Oct 21, 2016: In this EconoMinute, Prof. Wolff talks about the absence of democratic decision-making from our workplaces. He advocates for a democratic economic system, worker cooperatives as alternatives to the capitalist enterprise and as a way to build a new and better economy."

LINK: Richard D. Wolff here, Professor of Economics, author, host of Economic Update, and co-founder of democracyatwork.info. AMA. • /r/socialism
Richard Wolff: "Marx took the anarchist Bakunin very, very seriously. Lenin responded to anarchist ideas and spokespersons with his notion of the 'withering away of the state' (to which he committed himself and his party). Socialists now - especially after the disastrous engagements with excessive state power experienced by the USSR and other early experiments in socialism - need to be clear about how their proposals offer real ways to embody a determination to prevent state power from becoming a burden on rather than the true servant of the people. Grounding the productive wealth of society (its enterprises) in the hands of the people collectively is one way to move socialism in that direction and thereby concretely institutionalize an anarchist sensitivity into the core of a socialist project."
 
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Interesting conversation as today I did a new car purchase with a trade-in. Incidentally had a relevant conversation to the topic being discussed here.

The sales manager (from another country) talked about the location a car is assembled being important - actually impacting value. My trade-in was a VW (not part of the scandal) but he showed me how he could tell where the car was assembled. I already knew that the car had been assembled in Mexico - he showed me how he could confirm that - and indicated that the car had less value (according to him) because it had not been assembled in Germany. He had once owned a Mercedes (I think it was) that he knew was assembled in Germany, and he said the quality of the car was superior to others assembled elsewhere.

Then we shifted to Toyota and it's quality - he said he would only trust that car because all the cars were assembled in it's home country of Japan - by robots, as it happens. It's all mechanized - quality control is superb. So he said, but the quality somehow is connected to the country of Japan, in his view.

Interesting perspective and then to come in on this thread with the same topic. Kinda interesting.

Also, someone mentioned Trump's idea of a tariff. This will change the playing field substantially. I was interested to see that the Toyota dealership was doing a very brisk business (in my view). Another manager indicated that they expected to sell 100 cars tomorrow (Wednesday) and another 100 cars on Thanksgiving Day. Are people buying now because they are aware that once Trump gets in, good quality cars from abroad will be so pricey (because of Tariffs) as to be out of contention for purchase? Of course I don't know if the car-buying is usual or less or more. Guess there will be reports on that come January.

Anyway, all interesting.
The Toyota Camry and other models are built in the U.S. This information is on the sticker of a new car and on the labeling on the chassis inside the driver's door. Some VW's, such as the U.S. Passat, are built in TN. Never believe the car salesperson.
 
But how would we know as consumers? We don't have that much of an arc of experience, it seems to me, to be able to state unequivocally that such cars are equal. For example, my VW - as great as it was, and it was truly a great car (I will miss it) - had been having an odd problem with pick-up - erratic, unpredictable - for just over a year. Service on it was terrible - knowledge regarding the problem seemed minimal. Apparently fixed, yet the snafu continued - why? Why such lack of knowledge, lack of pride in doing a job well? There is an endemic lack of pride in one's labor in the US imo - that covers the service industry. Just my opinion. Lots of reasons for it. Complicated.
Which VW? Sometimes you need to try different dealers or call the manufacturer's regional office. But a VW can be flaky regardless of where it was built. I've had pretty good luck with them though.
 
Sorry to go off topic but the two post above reminded me of something I have been meaning to ask:

Does anybody know anything about the use of 3D printing, tooling and design in the late 1970s early 80s either by the US, or contractors working for the US.

I recently saw a talk by a guy named "Michael Schratt"* and I believe he implied that 3D computer technology was used to design and manufacture the F117 (Nighthawk) and the B2 (Spirit).

Any and all information would be greatly welcomed, I have made a new thread here:

3D CAD, Printing and Tooling in the Manufacture of "Black Projects"



*here is the talk I watched:
MUFON talk recommendation


If we put morals to one side, there are somethings that the US manufactures, that are literally decades ahead of most of the rest of the world.
 
Nearly every new US vehicle exhibits a percentage of foreign parts. These parts, whether created in North America or overseas must meet standards of US automakers. Which means these parts are tested and certified to the satisfaction of engineers of various US automakers. Your argument is bogus on its face, as it makes absolutely no difference where the part is created whether OEM, aftermarket, or, otherwise. Furthermore, every US automaker has taken into consideration obsolescence in knowing approximately when any given part may fail. It is built into the design as planned obsolescence. The replacement parts are manufactured to meet or exceed the same specifications per planned obsolescence. US automakers in a rush to compete occasionally fail in the engineering and production phases resulting in recalls.

As you twaddle on about the USA and their superior parts manufacturing, that is but a dream of days past.

Get over it Jeffy …

Why does it seem like everything around here is centered on Jeffy's needs?

Actually, your post here clearly underlines what it is to have no experience, and therefore no real knowledge concerning what it is you're pretending to know and understand something about. The biggest idiots in the car manufacturing process? One title says in all, ENGINEER. Who the beep do you think makes all the mistakes to begin with? However, I myself LOVE engineers because without them and their pompous idiocy, I'd go out of business. The rest of your post is just a bunch of "I don't what the bleep it is I'm talking about, but I'll sure as heck keep right on pretending that I do" yakety yak. For instance, the standards to which you refer are a JOKE. They're all minimum standards. Countless manufactures make parts overseas that are absolute garbage due to these same standards. Then there is the FACT that many (most) foreign low quality aftermarket parts manufactures use inferior quality raw materials in their manufacturing process. They have children assembling their parts, and those that are rebuilt have a near 15% failure rate right out of the box. It's pathetic, and is so dominant in the business I'm in, that I literally see it every single day. They don't even remotely begin to exercise the same levels of quality control that the OEM parts manufactures do. Yes, there are times when engineers build in the concept of controlled obsolescence, but their apathy alone is by far the biggest causal agent that bears out responsibility for a total lack of longevity, reliability, not to mention serviceability. Most are expressionless boneheads, and that's putting it nicely.

And here's the thing, because of the sheer greed that the large American automobile manufactures like GM & Chrysler became consumed by prior to arriving at chapter 11's doorstep back in 2008-2009, nearly all the parts they did use at that point were based on one criteria, and one criteria only: Lowest Bidder, therefore the lowest quality possible. Apart from Ford motor co. which was just a shade better, American automobile manufactures did in fact become an utter joke. It had been headed in that direction since the late 70s, and as a result, I've made a small fortune repairing that junk! :D

S.R.L., let me make one point above all others abundantly clear to you. I am an absolutely proved successful professional expert at what I do. You Sir couldn't begin to teach me ANYTHING about the business I have been in for better than 30 years now. However, many people whom are themselves experts, can and do teach me new things every year. This specific type of repair business has seen more technologically centered change in the last 20 years than most businesses will see in the course of a complete century. That my friend is the secret to success in this vicious business. Those who adapt to change rather than run from it, honestly and ethically improvise according to the needs of one's customers, will overcome the immense diversity of automobile design changes. They will in fact survive as we have. The business I have been running now for the last 17 years is specifically the oldest surviving independent automotive repair business within the community it exists. We have been in business since 1953, under the precise same business name and ownership lineage since the time of it's inception. We are very serious about what is we do.

S.R.L., as I have made clear, this is a very tough business to survive in. I have seen many in my day fail miserably due the type of pretentious ignorance that you're attempting to feign here as being some real level of qualified expertise.
 
The Toyota Camry and other models are built in the U.S. This information is on the sticker of a new car and on the labeling on the chassis inside the driver's door. Some VW's, such as the U.S. Passat, are built in TN. Never believe the car salesperson.
I think he was addressing the Prius. So he was wrong? It was a causal conversation not having a bearing on my purchase (I don't think). As for the German mention, it wasn't that the VW's aren't made elsewhere, only that he felt that the models built in Germany were better quality - as the Toyotas built in Japan were better. It's possible he meant that all the Toyotas on the lot - or maybe Prius's - were from Japan in this particular case. Dunno. But I agree salespeople say anything. :cool:
 
Correct, the Prius is assembled in Japan.

But most of the Toyotas sold in the U.S. are built in such places as Indiana. Kentucky, Mississippi and Texas. Some are built Ontario, Canada and Japan.

The VWs built in Germany were no more reliable than the ones built in the U.S. or Mexico.

What year/model did you have?

The salesperson's feeling about quality is just that — a feeling.
 
Which VW? Sometimes you need to try different dealers or call the manufacturer's regional office. But a VW can be flaky regardless of where it was built. I've had pretty good luck with them though.
I was told it was a known problem that had arisen with my model (disappointing because otherwise it was a super great car) - and they would have to do a series of fixes to nail it down. Not in itself unreasonable but a far cry from the absurd non-issues with Toyotas I have owned. (Put in the oil and they run). Because of the bad service I was going to go to another dealership but in the end succumbed to 0% financing and a car with all the technology bells-and-whistles. Hope I don't regret it. Loved my VW. :)
 
Which year and model?

German cars have their charms, but can be flaky in many ways. As I said, Asian cars, no matter where they are assembled, overall get the best reliability ratings. That said, I've owned three Toyotas over the years. The last two had their issues, and don't forget the Camry's sudden acceleration issues, mirroring the ones that impacted Audis in the 1980s.

So you got a Prius?
 
S.R.L., as I have made clear, this is a very tough business to survive in. I have seen many in my day fail miserably due the type of pretentious ignorance that you're attempting to feign here as being some real level of qualified expertise.
The degree of spit you level at those who challenge you is to your disadvantage. You simply are not credible as you appear to be trying to denigrate the person you are addressing, all the while puffing yourself up with assertions about yourself, rather than let your countering ideas speak for themselves. Reduces your credibility by a considerable margin - especially as you don't offer much in rebuttal either. (Most of your posts are rants against the other person - rather than being idea driven - and if you're not aware of this it would explain a lot).

You come across - if you're interested - as someone desperate to appear knowledgeable (given how you tout yourself) rather than demonstrate that you are. Just saying. (Trying to be helpful).
 
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The salesperson's feeling about quality is just that — a feeling.
Exactly so - that's what the conversation was really about. He was lamenting giving up his beloved older Mercedes doing exactly what I was doing with my VW - making an exchange for a high-end technology package for the experience.
 
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If you can survive the first year, Jaguars are quite nice ;)
  • Check engine light turning on for no reason
  • Hair raising failure of differential on highway
  • Window delamination
  • Ceiling touch lights going on and off randomly while you're driving at night.
  • Power window programming faults (nice when it rains and you can't fully close the window lol)
  • Sunroof coming loose during a pressurized car wash
  • Interior integrity: Burlwood cracks, polished metal bending out of place...
  • I'll spare you the rest...
... and kids stealing your wheel center caps :(
s-l225.jpg
 
Actually, your post here clearly underlines what it is to have no experience, and therefore no real knowledge concerning what it is you're pretending to know and understand something about.
Actually, I do have experience; however, it is obvious that you would rather fill lines in with your self-aggrandizing Hamburger Helper. I have never encountered an individual with the ability to fill in as many lines with meaningless crap. You must be paid by the word.
The biggest idiots in the car manufacturing process? One title says in all, ENGINEER. Who the beep do you think makes all the mistakes to begin with?
What is wrong with you? Have you been back in the parts room smoking jazz cabbage? I have already pointed that out.
However, I myself LOVE engineers because without them and their pompous idiocy, I'd go out of business.
Why don’t you place the blame where it mostly lies, in your customers who fail to maintain, or, end up abusing their vehicles?
The rest of your post is just a bunch of "I don't what the bleep it is I'm talking about, but I'll sure as heck keep right on pretending that I do" yakety yak.
Again, more Hamburger Helper.
For instance, the standards to which you refer are a JOKE. They're all minimum standards. Countless manufactures make parts overseas that are absolute garbage due to these same standards.
I would no more take your word that uniform standards are a joke than I would believe the US would knowingly allow for the importation of car parts created by "child" slave labor.
Then there is the FACT that many (most) foreign low quality aftermarket parts manufactures use inferior quality raw materials in their manufacturing process. They have children assembling their parts, and those that are rebuilt have a near 15% failure rate right out of the box.
Here you are again misleading. The parts you are describing are the bottom of the barrel, however, still carrying some type of warranty. Shady shops, used car dealers and weekend warriors on a budget utilize them.
They have children assembling their parts
Children..., you don’t say. Have you seen them running around naked on the streets grasping spark plug wires & water pumps? As usual, you supply grandiose exaggeration.
You have made the claim of child slave labor being implemented in parts arriving in the US..., again, prove it.
They have children assembling their parts, and those that are rebuilt have a near 15% failure rate right out of the box.
No one offs; list the part companies with an historical 15% failure rate “out of the box”. You made the claim, you prove it.
It's pathetic, and is so dominant in the business I'm in, that I literally see it every single day. They don't even remotely begin to exercise the same levels of quality control that the OEM parts manufactures do.
Why must you continue in providing unnecessary information already given to you? ADHD?
Yes, there are times when engineers build in the concept of controlled obsolescence
And here is where you have truly screwed the pooch, as in truly showing your lack of knowledge.
Not just the US, but every car manufacture on this planet tests their parts in compiling a failure rate as it is required by law to have replacement parts available for a determined number of years.
their apathy alone is by far the biggest causal agent that bears out responsibility for a total lack of longevity, reliability, not to mention serviceability. Most are expressionless boneheads, and that's putting it nicely.
In not knowing the former, the latter is meaningless.
And here's the thing, because of the sheer greed that the large American automobile manufactures like GM & Chrysler became consumed by prior to arriving at chapter 11's doorstep back in 2008-2009, nearly all the parts they did use at that point were based on one criteria, and one criteria only: Lowest Bidder, therefore the lowest quality possible.
Again, point me toward your evidence. I want to read (along with the other evidence) in which you espouse.
S.R.L., let me make one point above all others abundantly clear to you. I am an absolutely proved successful professional expert at what I do. You Sir couldn't begin to teach me ANYTHING about the business I have been in for better than 30 years now.
More inflated, self-aggrandizing opinion. Its gets old after a while, but some have unbearably grown accustomed to it.
However, many people whom are themselves experts, can and do teach me new things every year. This specific type of repair business has seen more technologically centered change in the last 20 years than most businesses will see in the course of a complete century.
Congratulation, for once there is common ground. I shall cherish this newfound common ground for one brief moment, and now that one moment is forever gone.
That my friend is the secret to success in this vicious business. Those who adapt to change rather than run from it, honestly and ethically improvise according to the needs of one's customers, will overcome the immense diversity of automobile design changes. They will in fact survive as we have. The business I have been running now for the last 17 years is specifically the oldest surviving independent automotive repair business within the community it exists. We have been in business since 1953, under the precise same business name and ownership lineage since the time of it's inception. We are very serious about what is we do.

S.R.L., as I have made clear, this is a very tough business to survive in. I have seen many in my day fail miserably due the type of pretentious ignorance that you're attempting to feign here as being some real level of qualified expertise.

If the crap should ever hit the fan, I am certain you would make for an excellent used car salesman, or, as a far reach.., motivational speaker.

Obviously, you’re employed in mid-level management.

I’m curious, did you marry into your job?
 
If you can survive the first year, Jaguars are quite nice ;)
  • Check engine light turning on for no reason
  • Hair raising failure of differential on highway
  • Window delamination
  • Ceiling touch lights going on and off randomly while you're driving at night.
  • Power window programming faults (nice when it rains and you can't fully close the window lol)
  • Sunroof coming loose during a pressurized car wash
  • Interior integrity: Burlwood cracks, polished metal bending out of place...
  • I'll spare you the rest...
... and kids stealing your wheel center caps :(
s-l225.jpg
True enough, but they are supposedly better now. How recent is your experience?
 
OK, so you are making a very restricted observation about a very specific industry. So that shouldn't apply to all or most U.S. manufacturing.
OK which industry aside from auto manufacturing would you like to discuss?

I'm close friends with folks who help run or are relatively highly placed in construction materials companies, waterworks companies, etc...

I'm happy to pass on the answers to any questions as you like.

For example, at a dinner party on the weekend, I broached the subject to someone in the construction materials business about why they don't assemble/blend/whatever it is that they do in the US given the raw material is often from the US, and sold back to the US.

His response was (and I'm paraphrasing) "Why would I give it to a union worker in the US who's making $39.50 an hour, doesn't care about the quality, and is just killing time until his next break when I could have it done by a worker who's happy and killing himself to make $9.00 an hour? And I don't have to worry about a strike?"

I understand this is the court of public opinion and I'm whitewashing here. But I think it's worthwhile to hear the perspective from those in business outside the US what the sense is.
 
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