They Should Tell You Climate change

[Burnt State]

NASA is fancy at data tampering just like the rest of your fake scientists.
NASA And NOAA Data Tampering Makes Legitimate Climate Science Impossible | Real Science
As far as glaciers.. it is that plain and simple, they advance and retreat like they have for millions and millions of years.
As far as catastrophe events, that is what your "side" has been predicting for years, global cooling and we will all die, rising sea levels and we will all die, global warming and we will all die, depleted ozone and we will all die, acid rain and we all die, it never ends.. ocean acidification? LOL do some research on that too.. wow.. you drank way too much kool aid..
The planet warms and cools if humans are here or not. Stop wetting your pants.

Once again, you are posting bunk. Most real scientists apparently laugh vociferously at Steven Goddard and debunk him routinely. And of course it would make sense that Forbes hailed him as the solution to climate gate, but that's because Forbes routinely sucks on the pipes of big oil. Are you starting to see a pattern in the sources of your support material?

Idiotic denier graph of the day, August 26,2012 | uknowispeaksense

You talk about sides, my side, your side - that's just plain ridiculous. I don't hold sides. There's quality information that tries to reasonably investigate a very complicated problem indicative of the poisons humans have brought to the planet. I'm not sure about that "we all die" stuff, because that's also just selecting extremes that are irrelevant. There's only one side, the side that cares about improving the quality of life on this planet for all the lifeforms that inhabit this world. It's not about sticking your head in the sand and saying, oh yeah, this stuff happens all the time - nothing do worry about. In fact, just do nothing. Or even better - why bother? That's not even a side - that's inactivity.

But here, for a good laugh, let's see what the Nazis have to say about Steve Goddard. I think this film is a rare, actual document transcribed by Joseph Farrell from the inside of Hitler's brain he recently discovered floating in a bottle near New Swabia. To really get all the jokes here you need to be squirreled deeply into climate denial and the debunking of the climate deniers. But there are laughs here for everyone, especially when the climate elves show up. It is simply a genius parody on blog science and climate denial.

 

[Tyger]

You talk about sides, my side, your side - that's just plain ridiculous. I don't hold sides. There's quality information that tries to reasonably investigate a very complicated problem indicative of the poisons humans have brought to the planet. I'm not sure about that "we all die" stuff, because that's also just selecting extremes that are irrelevant. There's only one side, the side that cares about improving the quality of life on this planet for all the lifeforms that inhabit this world. It's not about sticking your head in the sand and saying, oh yeah, this stuff happens all the time - nothing to worry about. In fact, just do nothing. Or even better - why bother? That's not even a side - that's inactivity.

Well said.

 

[flipper]

You talk about sides, my side, your side - that's just plain ridiculous. I don't hold sides. There's quality information that tries to reasonably investigate a very complicated problem indicative of the poisons humans have brought to the planet. I'm not sure about that "we all die" stuff, because that's also just selecting extremes that are irrelevant. There's only one side, the side that cares about improving the quality of life on this planet for all the lifeforms that inhabit this world. It's not about sticking your head in the sand and saying, oh yeah, this stuff happens all the time - nothing do worry about. In fact, just do nothing. Or even better - why bother? That's not even a side - that's inactivity.

Your right if your on any other side than trying to figure out what is actually going on, then I hope you are enjoying the argument because no one will change their mind. The thing is something is going on with the weather. For example extreme heat in Australia while North America has had the coldest winter in 20 to 35 years depending on where you live in Canada. I think that even cats with 9 lives, who like global warming, do not want their home flooded, or to be with no water to drink, or with no electricity due to a storm, or live in a toxic environment where their health is taken away. There is a very simple solution to much of this. If we make the car companies pay for the roads and provide free rail transportation we will reduce deaths injuries, medical costs, and pollution but no one that I know has the power to implement such a plan. Is the weather being manipulated, and if so by whom and for what reason?
Is civilization itself the problem? Myself I try to live simply, buy local, produce as much of my own food as I can, be careful what I eat, and walk as much as possible. What do you do and what are your suggestions to address this complicated situations?

 

[manxman]

The thing is something is going on with the weather. For example extreme heat in Australia while North America has had the coldest winter in 20 to 35 years depending on where you live in Canada

so what, was there ''something'' going on with the weather 20 to 35 years ago, why is now any different to then ?.

 

[flipper]

The thing is something is going on with the weather. For example extreme heat in Australia while North America has had the coldest winter in 20 to 35 years depending on where you live in Canada

so what, was there ''something'' going on with the weather 20 to 35 years ago, why is now any different to then ?.

Thank you for the question

Briefly I think the storms are more extreme, the weather is more erratic. This is the coldest winter that people here can remember. The summer of 2013 was the continuous rain after several years of dry summers. It rains harder and more suddenly, and the sky is almost always hazy. Finally different and extreme weather is being reported all over the planet almost daily. I think the weather is different, but I am willing to be proved wrong. What do you think?

 

[stonehart]

Thank you for the question

Briefly I think the storms are more extreme, the weather is more erratic. This is the coldest winter that people here can remember. The summer of 2013 was the continuous rain after several years of dry summers. It rains harder and more suddenly, and the sky is almost always hazy. Finally different and extreme weather is being reported all over the planet almost daily. I think the weather is different, but I am willing to be proved wrong. What do you think?

Lost all of my crops this year due to

1. Extremely high winds in excess of 160km on three separate occasions
2. Lack of sunlight for ripening.... this is the big one as the sky even when there has been no rain is almost always overcast.
3. To much rain.. yes you can have way to much ground moister and it kills the plants and also introduces fungal growth that is a nightmare to control if there is not enough sun.
4. Hail storms... shreds plants

Last year was bad but this season has been a nightmare and the year before last was bad as well... it seems to be incrementally getting worse.
I am not the only one who is having these problems, I have many friends in a bit of a growing collective (we trade seeds for other seeds) who have had most if not all their crops fail the past few years.
Our climate here has changed and dramatically and very fast.

 

[manxman]

well that's pure coincidence, the weather hasnt just dramatically changed in 3 or 4 years, but im sorry to hear someone who works the land, having a hard time, here is sowing time now, grounds a bit too wet still, but the most turned fields are now disced waiting to be sown, same as ever, rookery out the back sounds the same as ever at this time of year.

what do you grow stonehart ?.

 

[manxman]

Once again, you are posting bunk. Most real scientists apparently laugh vociferously at Steven Goddard and debunk him routinely. And of course it would make sense that Forbes hailed him as the solution to climate gate, but that's because Forbes routinely sucks on the pipes of big oil. Are you starting to see a pattern in the sources of your support material?

Idiotic denier graph of the day, August 26,2012 | uknowispeaksense

You talk about sides, my side, your side - that's just plain ridiculous. I don't hold sides. There's quality information that tries to reasonably investigate a very complicated problem indicative of the poisons humans have brought to the planet. I'm not sure about that "we all die" stuff, because that's also just selecting extremes that are irrelevant. There's only one side, the side that cares about improving the quality of life on this planet for all the lifeforms that inhabit this world. It's not about sticking your head in the sand and saying, oh yeah, this stuff happens all the time - nothing do worry about. In fact, just do nothing. Or even better - why bother? That's not even a side - that's inactivity.

But here, for a good laugh, let's see what the Nazis have to say about Steve Goddard. I think this film is a rare, actual document transcribed by Joseph Farrell from the inside of Hitler's brain he recently discovered floating in a bottle near New Swabia. To really get all the jokes here you need to be squirreled deeply into climate denial and the debunking of the climate deniers. But there are laughs here for everyone, especially when the climate elves show up. It is simply a genius parody on blog science and climate denial.

that's a piss poor reply, sorry, but theres no other way to describe it, fact's are fact's, fraud is fraud, thewayback machine tells the truth about nasa et al, manufacturing data, and deleting old raw data, and replacing it with the fraudulent data.

you may not like having that exposed, but there it is, for anyone who cares to delve to see, most of what you post is based on forcasts derived/modelled from THAT newly contrived raw data, and although all sciency, it isnt worth jack.

its extremely boring reading someone so completely biased, that they will use totally contrived data, to further their OWN personal agenda, so instead of just hand waving what you dont like away, with a 'most scientist's' line, try using uncorrupted data to further your conclusions, and also the ''most scientist's laugh etc'' line is meaningless when they draw THEIR conclusions from data created so that THEY cannot come to any other conclusion.

your postings on this subject are becoming so fallacy ridden, 'appeals'
so many appeal's you should register a charity.

i have no dog in this race, but its annoyed me that i spent time reading alot of the links youve posted, to now realise ive had my time wasted, not that i doubt you believe it. the junk data people have convinced you,, and you've lapped it up to the point you are blind, the world could be getting warmer, however i think if it was, there would be no need to manufacture false raw data, and replace the REAL raw data with it, that's not science, its fraud, and its fraud on a billion's of dollar's world wide scale..

 

[stonehart]

well that's pure coincidence, the weather hasnt just dramatically changed in 3 or 4 years, but im sorry to hear someone who works the land, having a hard time, here is sowing time now, grounds a bit too wet still, but the most turned fields are now disced waiting to be sown, same as ever, rookery out the back sounds the same as ever at this time of year.

what do you grow stonehart ?.

My own "organic" food and have done for many years, my wife can not eat processed foods and we have to watch what has been put on or into produce as it affects her throid. Simple fact is if you want to know if the climate around here has changed ask anyone who grows their own food or farm and they will tell you that the local climate is not what it was. It is staying far to wet far to long, the sunlight hours are not long enough and the storms are much more violent they they were.
Canterbury can be windy and traditionally it is a hot nor-west wind, this means lots of heat and sun which is great for ripening but we are just not getting them as we would.
The soil temps are lower than they should be this time of year and the dew has come on far to early.. not by a week or so but by months! The soil temp is needed for growth and for flowering which means many of the plants did not even flower!
What we are getting are lots of easterly winds from the southern ocean and they are cooling and tend to bring lots of cloud, if it is not that then it is a southerly which brings us lots of very cold temps and rain .. lots of rain as we had two flood episodes this year.
But is the wind.. oh god is it the wind that is a problem, yes we get winds here but not like we have had, my shelter belt has been torn apart and my corn was ripped out by its roots! the Tomatoes which were struggling to fruit as it is were shredded and my peppers just wont ripen up even under clear plastic.. yeah they are getting some heat but just not enough sunlight.

I live on a slim bit of land in the middle of the South Pacific and we really do feel weather shifts. The normal times for planting are way out of sync from what they were ten years ago. The summer weather is not what it was .. I know most here wont believe me but they are not what they were as I keep a journal of planting times and crop rotation, what did well one year and what did not.

I know Mike grows his own as well and on a bigger scale than myself so I should ask him if he is experiencing changes in crop cycles.

 

[pixelsmith]

that's a piss poor reply, sorry, but theres no other way to describe it, fact's are fact's, fraud is fraud, thewayback machine tells the truth about nasa et al, manufacturing data, and deleting old raw data, and replacing it with the fraudulent data.

you may not like having that exposed, but there it is, for anyone who cares to delve to see, most of what you post is based on forcasts derived/modelled from THAT newly contrived raw data, and although all sciency, it isnt worth jack.

its extremely boring reading someone so completely biased, that they will use totally contrived data, to further their OWN personal agenda, so instead of just hand waving what you dont like away, with a 'most scientist's' line, try using uncorrupted data to further your conclusions, and also the ''most scientist's laugh etc'' line is meaningless when they draw THEIR conclusions from data created so that THEY cannot come to any other conclusion.

your postings on this subject are becoming so fallacy ridden, 'appeals'
so many appeal's you should register a charity.

i have no dog in this race, but its annoyed me that i spent time reading alot of the links youve posted, to now realise ive had my time wasted, not that i doubt you believe it. the junk data people have convinced you,, and you've lapped it up to the point you are blind, the world could be getting warmer, however i think if it was, there would be no need to manufacture false raw data, and replace the REAL raw data with it, that's not science, its fraud, and its fraud on a billion's of dollar's world wide scale..

Well stated! I have no time to explain it to well meaning but ignorant followers like Burnt.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Burnt State]

that's a piss poor reply, sorry, but theres no other way to describe it, fact's are fact's, fraud is fraud, thewayback machine tells the truth about nasa et al, manufacturing data, and deleting old raw data, and replacing it with the fraudulent data.

you may not like having that exposed, but there it is, for anyone who cares to delve to see, most of what you post is based on forcasts derived/modelled from THAT newly contrived raw data, and although all sciency, it isnt worth jack.

its extremely boring reading someone so completely biased, that they will use totally contrived data, to further their OWN personal agenda, so instead of just hand waving what you dont like away, with a 'most scientist's' line, try using uncorrupted data to further your conclusions, and also the ''most scientist's laugh etc'' line is meaningless when they draw THEIR conclusions from data created so that THEY cannot come to any other conclusion.

your postings on this subject are becoming so fallacy ridden, 'appeals'
so many appeal's you should register a charity.

i have no dog in this race, but its annoyed me that i spent time reading alot of the links youve posted, to now realise ive had my time wasted, not that i doubt you believe it. the junk data people have convinced you,, and you've lapped it up to the point you are blind, the world could be getting warmer, however i think if it was, there would be no need to manufacture false raw data, and replace the REAL raw data with it, that's not science, its fraud, and its fraud on a billion's of dollar's world wide scale..

The appeals to care for the planet and the facts about what we've done to it stand alone and stand clear. The links are valid. Guessing about erased data is just a conspiracist ploy, a forgery, and I simply do not subscribe to conspiracist visions of the world be it climate denial, 9-11 was an inside job, Kennedy was killed by the ghost of Abraham Lincoln as foretold in a dream by Ingo Swann as a child - it's all bunk. I recognize many may give weight to such notions but for me, when we speculate about random data points and then make guess work about why, well before you know it, Joseph Farrll starts to make sense & we're questioning whether or not we landed on the moon.

Nasa probably taped over original Apollo 11 moon walk footage | Science | theguardian.com

NASA erasss shit all the time. Sure they erased Greenland's weather, and Iceland's weather, and they deleted the original moon landings. So what? That doesn't mean that there's some conspiracy about them never landing on the moon, or that they were in fact experimenting with controlling the weather in the Northern Hemisphere using old Tesla tech. + Nazi tech., or that global warming is a myth.

But more importantly: how many degrees warmer is ok? How acidified should the ocean be allowed to get? How much extreme weather will we tolerate without the moderating lungs of the world, the forests - there to slow wind, help cool the atmosphere and stop storms from building into the wacko weather we've seen? Are you saying that childhood cancers, and respiratory afflictions are not increasing?

Do you think we should just ignore all these trends because we found out NASA lost some more data? To speculate in the other direction and do nothing IMHO is to shirk our reposnibilities as stewards of the planet. But if you want to think NASA is trying to pull a fast one because they somehow stand to gain from misrepresenting climate data then that's a personal choice.

 

[manxman]

The appeals to care for the planet and the facts about what we've done to it stand alone and stand clear. The links are valid. Guessing about erased data is just a conspiracist ploy, a forgery, and I simply do not subscribe to conspiracist visions of the world be it climate denial, 9-11 was an inside job, Kennedy was killed by the ghost of Abraham Lincoln as foretold in a dream by Ingo Swann as a child - it's all bunk. I recognize many may give weight to such notions but for me, when we speculate about random data points and then make guess work about why, well before you know it, Joseph Farrll starts to make sense & we're questioning whether or not we landed on the moon.

3 or 4 red herrings doesnt cut it burnt, sorry, global warming/climate change and the fabricated data from NASA and IPCC, is what WE are discussing, not ''SAVE THE WHALES'', or kennedy or 911 or moon landings.


NASA erasss shit all the time. Sure they erased Greenland's weather, and Iceland's weather, and they deleted the original moon landings. So what? That doesn't mean that there's some conspiracy about them never landing on the moon, or that they were in fact experimenting with controlling the weather in the Northern Hemisphere using old Tesla tech. + Nazi tech., or that global warming is a myth.

again red herrings, it is not a conspiracy, NASA have replaced the real raw data with contrived new data, the waybackmachine and hard cpoies, PROVES they have acted fraudulently, theres no conspiracy, just FRAUD.


But more importantly: how many degrees warmer is ok?

i dont know how much of a rise is OK, what i do know is from 78 to 98 there was a one degree ris in global temperature, and no rise since, THAT IS NOT GLOBAL WARMING.

How acidified should the ocean be allowed to get? How much extreme weather will we tolerate without the moderating lungs of the world, the forests - there to slow wind, help cool the atmosphere and stop storms from building into the wacko weather we've seen? Are you saying that childhood cancers, and respiratory afflictions are not increasing?

we have ALWAYS had wacko weather, the rest are red herrings, and more 'appeals', lets get the violins out for the worlds children, linking climate change to childrens cancer is idiocy.
however jailing the fraudster's and re-allocating some of the funds currently being wasted on junk science, to cancer research will be money more prudently spent.

Do you think we should just ignore all these trends because we found out NASA lost some more data?

nasa in this case didnt ''LOSE'' any data, they invented NEW data, and swapped it,


To speculate in the other direction and do nothing IMHO is to shirk our reposnibilities as stewards of the planet.

who is saying nothing should be done ? doing the right thing for the right reasons is paramount imo.


But if you want to think NASA is trying to pull a fast one because they somehow stand to gain from misrepresenting climate data then that's a personal choice.


NO it is not personal choice, it is because i spent several hours examining the REAL raw data, compared againt the INVENTED data NASA purposefully and decietfully replaced the raw data with.


i dont know whether the oceans or the global temp's will rise, what i do NOW know, is that NASA and the IPCC data is bunk science, based on lots of contrived junk data, and billions of dollars of PUBLIC FUNDS are being mis-allocated because of the fraud, people need to go to jail for this, it should make any reasonable person very angry.

 

[Burnt State]

Ok, let's just think rationally about this for a moment, again, without sides, but in just thinking about purposes and reasons.

If in fact, the grand conspiracy is actually NASA creating fraudulent data it begs the question - why? What gain would the space faring NASA get from this narrative that you are presenting of people cooking the books? What's the agenda? I see a large corporation that can't maintain their history - every archival environment fails this way, and yes, they may even fail again and invent data possibly. But do they have some evil agenda on the whole, as in the prime directive from NASA is to promote global warming? Does that sound like a reasonable discussion that all the dept. heads are talking about in their monthly meetings - of course not. But it's red herrings for folk like Goddard to fuel their blog anger - it's a battle about sides. I don't live there.

On the other hand the narrative of climate denial, of connecting the conspiracist dots, the removal of interdisciplinary thought from the discussion that does connect the appeals of hatred, and distrust - WHO DOES THAT SERVE? Some say it serves rational discourse, as you are telling me. @manxman , I appreciate where you are coming from. If you read my posts, about the formation of my beliefs, you know I come by my environmentalsim from my family and lived experiences. I only read this climate material to talk to those who promote narratives of big oil. It's not something I pursue at all. I think people who are smart need to better critically examine their sources, their purposes and what they might be unknowingly promoting

I grow trees from seed and plant them in burnt out industrial fields. For me, the narrative around climate, pollution, disease, extinction and environmental devestation are all interconnected. Some throw up their hands and say that's the history of life on earth. That to me is a categorical abdication of human responsibility.

I think the real evil has always been those with big power keeping people like you and me dancing on the stage of god about a futile discourse i.e. Evil NASA with its global warming conspiracy. Who is served by such debates? Why are we wasting the time instead of just working on what we inow is right: regulating industry to promote environmental responsibility.

But industry, corporate power, and über-wealth fuels the discourse for the sake of personal and shareholder profit. That's my reality. What's yours? That $$$ is being wasted in the name of a false science-is that correct? So you tell me what in fact the capital losses are to humanity for the wastelands that big oil and mining have left in their wake over the years and then you tell me what their profits have been. Then you tell where we should be putting our energies into and what's worth defending?

The amount of money put into climate pursuits is a pittance up against the billions made from industry who never protect workers, clean up their mess or reinvest in the communities they destroyed.

 

[Burnt State]

Ok, last night I got to see an exceptional documentary about the history of mining in Canada, specifically Ontario where nickel for the world's war machines has always come from. The doc titled "The Hole Story" provides some interesting insight into the connections between the myth of pride in nationalism, the narratives of the ultra wealthy, immigration and scapegoats. There's a direct implication with this recent discussion around "sides".

This was the scene in 1917 when a coal mine explosion killed 65 men. Weeping crowds surrounded the pit mouth as bodies were pulled up and volunteers descended underground to perform the deadly task of searching for survivors. Due to the deadly gases still lingering in the mine, some of the rescuers would be added to the dead by day’s end. As a vivid account from the Winnipeg Free Press reporter wrote, “a number of the rescued miners were driven temporarily insane by the explosion, and the gas which swept through the mine. In some cases they had to be put under restraint in order to protect them from their own violence.”

Mining was J.P. Morgan's baby. When the early Finnish and Italian immigrants came into Canada they were shipped to mining towns, and separated from other immigrants so they could not unionize. When the first unions were formed the company brought in private Police to break strike lines, bring in scab labour etc.. The mortality age was 42 for miners in the early years as they breathed in constant dust with zero health and safety standards. The shaft drill tools they used were called widow makers. Sudbury was the only place you could get nickel to make stainless steel alloys and metal for battleships, tanks and bullets.

During the wars INCO sold 40% of its nickel to Germany so Canadian boys could get killed with bullets by nickel mined in their own hometown. As per the picture above mining corporations refused to pay money into the towns they were destroying, growing future cancers in brownfields they would refuse to reclaim until many decades later. Mining Widows and their families lived in poverty and mining towns left cities as mud heaps filled with toxins, paying taxes only on the buildings they owned, even when they were compelled to provide profit percentages to cities - they simply refused.

At the end of the day it was the immigrants who established labour law in Canada and it is the immigrant who died in the mines living in crappy conditions, and their kids lived in poverty. But today we hate the immigrant as our social scapegoat, and we rejoice in the history of our national identity. Mines continue to advertise that they are building oasis after oasis out of their reclaimed toxic mining pools, though they have yet to build one to date. Turns out it's a lot harder than it looks, this whole nature thing, and trying to reclaim heavy metals from the soil and water table is actually a real nuisance.

But WTF let's just sing the story of the happy Canuck mining industry and forget about its deadly history, forget the blood diamonds and the killing of those indigenous South American farmers so Canadian mining & other International conglomerates can pillage in anther land with slack laws.

Here's some prime mining propaganda, and far from reality:

The real history of industry is bloody and horrifying with only concern for personal and shareholder profit. The people are just there for grinding into the ground as millions upon billions of dollars flee the community leaving cancer in its wake. Now the owners of these energy and mineral extraction companies use good coin to distract everyone with media about how nice they are and that things like environmental regulation & global warming are mythic events - simply nothing to worry about.

If there are active lies at work directing our society they have always been perpetuated by the kings and queens of the world, those owners of industry who see people as grist for the mill - they are the true breakaway society. Their doublespeak tells us that global warming is a thoughtcrime, and that concerns for the environment, other species and our own health are appeals red herrings and lies. In fact let's waste time amongst the populace and keep them hating each other as they debate whether or not global warming exists, who should be hated (see Tea Party handbook) and where cancer really comes from.

 

[manxman]

Ok, let's just think rationally about this for a moment, again, without sides, but in just thinking about purposes and reasons.

i havent taken ''any side''


If in fact, the grand conspiracy is actually NASA creating fraudulent data it begs the question - why?

there is no IF about it, nasa HAS beyond any shadow of doubt replace around 70 years of raw data with fraudulent manufactured data, now your asking me to guess why.

What gain would the space faring NASA get from this narrative that you are presenting of people cooking the books?

again you talk as if there is doubt about the swapping of data, where the wayback machine alone PROVES beyond doubt that they have, and again you ask me to guess why.


What's the agenda?

i dont know.


I see a large corporation that can't maintain their history - every archival environment fails this way, and yes, they may even fail again and invent data possibly.

there was no failure in this instance, just fraud.



But do they have some evil agenda on the whole, as in the prime directive from NASA is to promote global warming?

obviously there are people and influence's, putting the organisation in league with the IPCC

Does that sound like a reasonable discussion that all the dept. heads are talking about in their monthly meetings - of course not.

well why say it then ?.


But it's red herrings for folk like Goddard to fuel their blog anger - it's a battle about sides. I don't live there.

an example of red herring is your second last sentence.


On the other hand the narrative of climate denial, of connecting the conspiracist dots, the removal of interdisciplinary thought from the discussion that does connect the appeals of hatred, and distrust - WHO DOES THAT SERVE?

the IPCC have been using junk data, anyone who cares to look for just a few hours, cannot come to any other conclusion, so as you say WHO DOES THAT SERVE?


Some say it serves rational discourse, as you are telling me.

rational discourse is hard with you on this subject, its in your soul, you DONT CARE that the IPCC raw data is cherry picked and/or straight up 'man made', show me data from institutions that are not politically tainted.


@manxman , I appreciate where you are coming from.

then you will know i have seen for myself dozens of fraudulently replaced raw data charts etc.

If you read my posts, about the formation of my beliefs, you know I come by my environmentalsim from my family and lived experiences.

yes i know that is where you EXTREME bias on this topic originates.

I only read this climate material to talk to those who promote narratives of big oil.

i have no love for big oil, thieving destructive bastards


It's not something I pursue at all.

obviously you are


I think people who are smart need to better critically examine their sources, their purposes and what they might be unknowingly promoting

correct, thats why you need to stand back, take a deep breath, prepare yourself to look honestly, at the data sources you place your faith in, and have the intellectual integrity to admit to yourself, dis-honesty when you confront it, which you surely will

I grow trees from seed and plant them in burnt out industrial fields.

that's nice

For me, the narrative around climate, pollution, disease, extinction and environmental devestation are all interconnected.

yes i know, for me this debate is about GLOBAL WARMING /CLIMATE CHANGE RAW DATA only, this is why all your APPEALS TO EMOTION are a pain in the ass.

Some throw up their hands and say that's the history of life on earth. That to me is a categorical abdication of human responsibility.

I agree

I think the real evil has always been those with big power keeping people like you and me dancing on the stage of god about a futile discourse i.e. Evil NASA with its global warming conspiracy.

another 'appeal'


Who is served by such debates? Why are we wasting the time instead of just working on what we inow is right: regulating industry to promote environmental responsibility.

we are not having a debate about regulating industrie and all issues green, YOU ARE, im discusing the raw data the IPCC bases its models and forcasts on for global warming.


But industry, corporate power, and über-wealth fuels the discourse for the sake of personal and shareholder profit. That's my reality.

Appeal

What's yours? That $$$ is being wasted in the name of a false science-is that correct?

no, my problem is the way the science is being fraudulently manipulated, for political ends.

So you tell me what in fact the capital losses are to humanity for the wastelands that big oil and mining have left in their wake over the years and then you tell me what their profits have been.

dont know, what has big oil got to do with the IPCC using fraudulent raw data.


Then you tell where we should be putting our energies into and what's worth defending?

different topic for another thread, i understand your passion for green issues, they are not my passion, i am only interested in this raw data issue.


The amount of money put into climate pursuits is a pittance up against the billions made from industry who never protect workers, clean up their mess or reinvest in the communities they destroyed.

again a lovely appeal to emotion, but off-topic.

 

[flipper]

again red herrings, it is not a conspiracy, NASA have replaced the real raw data with contrived new data, the waybackmachine and hard cpoies, PROVES they have acted fraudulently, theres no conspiracy, just FRAUD.
nasa in this case didnt ''LOSE'' any data, they invented NEW data, and swapped it, NO it is not personal choice, it is because i spent several hours examining the REAL raw data, compared againt the INVENTED data NASA purposefully and decietfully replaced the raw data with.
i dont know whether the oceans or the global temp's will rise, what i do NOW know, is that NASA and the IPCC data is bunk science, based on lots of contrived junk data, and billions of dollars of PUBLIC FUNDS are being mis-allocated because of the fraud, people need to go to jail for this, it should make any reasonable person very angry.

I believe what you are saying is that NASA was engaged in is a conspiracy to commit fraud.

con·spir·a·cy
[kuh

n-spir-uh-see] conspiring.
2.
an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3.
a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4.
Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5.
any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

 

[manxman]

no, they have replaced raw data, with man-made data.

theres is no theory, just fraud, im not interested in any other point about this whole climate debate, motive, big oil, pharma, non of it.

just this narrow, but very important issue of the raw data the models are built on, thus industies being taxed on, who then pass on the charges to the consumer, you and i, aswell as both indirect and direct governmental taxes on you and i, also based on the consequences of said climate models.

whereas i want to stay focused on point, burnt is just playing to the gallery with all his sentimental appeals, we all feel the same way about the planet, but not all of us want to be financially ass-raped for something based on bullshit data.

 

[Tyger]

I am seeing only one person getting emotional in what is - on the whole - an extremely interesting discussion. I have great respect for everyone involved and want to understand all the views clearly - so any fist-banging just detracts from the flow (imo).

What is 'thewaybackmachine'?

How can NASA erase a moon landing? There are oodles of 'originals' and copies of those originals.

And what's this about erasing weather? Sounds odd - like something is getting scrambled here. A little too pat.

 

[flipper]

Ok, last night I got to see an exceptional documentary about the history of mining in Canada, specifically Ontario where nickel for the world's war machines has always come from. The doc titled "The Hole Story" provides some interesting insight into the connections between the myth of pride in nationalism, the narratives of the ultra wealthy, immigration and scapegoats. There's a direct implication with this recent discussion around "sides".

Mining was J.P. Morgan's baby. When the early Finnish and Italian immigrants came into Canada they were shipped to mining towns, and separated from other immigrants so they could not unionize. When the first unions were formed the company brought in private Police to break strike lines, bring in scab labour etc.. The mortality age was 42 for miners in the early years as they breathed in constant dust with zero health and safety standards. The shaft drill tools they used were called widow makers. Sudbury was the only place you could get nickel to make stainless steel alloys and metal for battleships, tanks and bullets.

During the wars INCO sold 40% of its nickel to Germany so Canadian boys could get killed with bullets by nickel mined in their own hometown. As per the picture above mining corporations refused to pay money into the towns they were destroying, growing future cancers in brownfields they would refuse to reclaim until many decades later. Mining Widows and their families lived in poverty and mining towns left cities as mud heaps filled with toxins, paying taxes only on the buildings they owned, even when they were compelled to provide profit percentages to cities - they simply refused.

At the end of the day it was the immigrants who established labour law in Canada and it is the immigrant who died in the mines living in crappy conditions, and their kids lived in poverty. But today we hate the immigrant as our social scapegoat, and we rejoice in the history of our national identity. Mines continue to advertise that they are building oasis after oasis out of their reclaimed toxic mining pools, though they have yet to build one to date. Turns out it's a lot harder than it looks, this whole nature thing, and trying to reclaim heavy metals from the soil and water table is actually a real nuisance.

But WTF let's just sing the story of the happy Canuck mining industry and forget about its deadly history, forget the blood diamonds and the killing of those indigenous South American farmers so Canadian mining & other International conglomerates can pillage in anther land with slack laws.

Here's some prime mining propaganda, and far from reality:

The real history of industry is bloody and horrifying with only concern for personal and shareholder profit. The people are just there for grinding into the ground as millions upon billions of dollars flee the community leaving cancer in its wake. Now the owners of these energy and mineral extraction companies use good coin to distract everyone with media about how nice they are and that things like environmental regulation & global warming are mythic events - simply nothing to worry about.

If there are active lies at work directing our society they have always been perpetuated by the kings and queens of the world, those owners of industry who see people as grist for the mill - they are the true breakaway society. Their doublespeak tells us that global warming is a thoughtcrime, and that concerns for the environment, other species and our own health are appeals red herrings and lies. In fact let's waste time amongst the populace and keep them hating each other as they debate whether or not global warming exists, who should be hated (see Tea Party handbook) and where cancer really comes from.

For me this really painful past and present history. Thank you for posting it Burnt State.

 

[pixelsmith]

no, they have replaced raw data, with man-made data.

theres is no theory, just fraud, im not interested in any other point about this whole climate debate, motive, big oil, pharma, non of it.

just this narrow, but very important issue of the raw data the models are built on, thus industies being taxed on, who then pass on the charges to the consumer, you and i, aswell as both indirect and direct governmental taxes on you and i, also based on the consequences of said climate models.

whereas i want to stay focused on point, burnt is just playing to the gallery with all his sentimental appeals, we all feel the same way about the planet, but not all of us want to be financially ass-raped for something based on bullshit data.

Well stated. Perfect. Burnt's eyes are wide open but he can't see.


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