Gaza Israel bombings

[mike]

Heres why its anti semitism

Hamas is clearly guilty of war crimes in its current round of fighting with Israel

Rocket attacks against unprotected Israeli civilians who do not pose a concrete military threat,are a clear violation of international law

In addition, deliberately hiding among a civilian population and using civilians—including women and children—as human shields is also a war crime.
“The most basic principle of the law of war” is to distinguish between civilian targets and military targets. “It is strictly forbidden to direct attacks at civilian targets.” This principle has clear relevance to the firing by Hamas and other Gaza militants of close to 1,000 rockets at Israeli cities and villages, with the object of causing as many casualties as possible among the civilian population.

But where are the posts calling for Hamas to be charged with war crimes ?

Two sides are involved, but when you single out one side, one has to ask why ?

When the evidence is clear its side A thats the instigator of the attacks, that its side A that as soon as the ceasefire is over lob another rocket and kill more innocent civilians, forcing the hand of side B.

Dont get me wrong War is a crime, i weep when i see children killed and injured. I dont see palestinian or jewish children. Just children

GENEVA—
The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay, says the targeting of civilian infrastructure or the use of civilian structures for military purposes violate international humanitarian law and international human rights law. She warns both Israel and Hamas may be guilty of war crimes in breaching these humanitarian principles.

So when here in this thread its Israel that gets singled out, that discrimination can only be anti semitism.

 

[Bananas]

That's a dumb argument to make. How can you criticise Israeli actions and not be branded anti-semitic when it's a jewish state? It's the same idiotic argument some make about being anti-Islam if you say anything about the Arab world.

I also find this "hiding behind women and children" statement laughable. Dude, they are kicking down doors to peoples HOMES, should the women and chilren live on the streets in case you get raided? Gaza isn't a designated warzone, people actually LIVE there and when you barge into houses, no shit your going to find people in their homes. Look at how big Gaza is, then look at how many people live there, BOXED IN, UNABLE TO LEAVE. Where the hell are the women and children going to go? They can't go anywhere, there is no room to go anywhere and the borders are closed off. That's like putting fish in a barrel and then saying "well, this fish is hiding with these other fish in this barrel, so he's a bad fish".

There's 1.8 million people living in a 360km2 plot of land.

Hamas are a bunch of religious lunatics, there's no doubt about that and no would be sorry if every last one of them were shot in the head but please, get real

 

[mike]

If the international community launches a war crimes investigation follow the conflict in Gaza, a spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces said, Hamas' leadership would be more likely to be convicted than senior leaders of Israel.

So why is the decked stacked against israel in this thread ?

"The party guilty of the war crimes here is Hamas for two reasons: The first is deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians. We saw that at the very beginning of the operation. Even this morning [minutes before the ceasefire took effect/, we saw a barrage of rockets being fired into Israel, one of which landed in a Palestinian town. That is how indiscriminate the rocketing is. The more significant war crime, manifested during the operation, was the deliberate use of civilian population," said IDF spokesman Captain Eytan Buchman in an interview. "There is a list of thousands, thousands of Hamas war crimes."

International observers have routinely condemned Hamas' use of human shields, while criticizing Israel for not doing enough to reduce civilian casualties. According to the United Nations, 1814 people were killed in Gaza, with 72% being civilians, before the ceasefire. The Israelis, who lost 64 soldiers and 3 civilians, refute the percentage of Palestinian civilians lost. The IDF alleges to have killed 900 terrorists (about 50%) while hitting 3834 targets in Gaza. This was in retaliation for the 2909 rockets tht Hamas launched into Israel. These numbers are set to rise dramatically now that the Hamas has broken the ceasefire.

"It chooses to wage within Gaza city rather than in the fields around Gaza city. It puts the IDF in a situation where we can either let them continue to exploit the civilian cover, let them continue to wage their operations from behind civilians or you can try to get them."

IDF Spokesman: Hamas Guilty of War Crimes | Laura Goldman


Israel has to be able to defend itself, has to be free to stop the thousands of rockets raining down on its civilians.

Its Hamas thats doubly guilty here, first for targeting civilians, then for giving Israel no choice but to kill Palestinians in order to destroy the weapons and launchers

Its Hamas's tactics that is responsible for the blood of civilians both sides.

But its Israel thats getting demonised here..........Why is that ?

 

[mike]

That's a dumb argument to make. How can you criticise Israeli actions and not be branded anti-semitic when it's a jewish state? It's the same idiotic argument some make about being anti-Islam if you say anything about the Arab world.

I also find this "hiding behind women and children" statement laughable. Dude, they are kicking down doors to peoples HOMES, should the women and chilren live on the streets in case you get raided? Gaza isn't a designated warzone, people actually LIVE there and when you barge into houses, no shit your going to find people in their homes. Look at how big Gaza is, then look at how many people live there, BOXED IN, UNABLE TO LEAVE. Where the hell are the women and children going to go? They can't go anywhere, there is no room to go anywhere and the borders are closed off. That's like putting fish in a barrel and then saying "well, this fish is hiding with these other fish in this barrel, so he's a bad fish".

Hamas are a bunch of religious lunatics, there's no doubt about that and no would be sorry if every last one of them were shot in the head but please, get real

Correct Gaza is not a designated warzone, and Hamas is none the less is using it to launch attacks on its targets, Hamas has dragged Gaza into the fire zone.

Hamas forbids civilians to leave their homes, puts them in harms way on the roofs of rocket factories and forces children to remain in combat zones

The main argument presented by Israel's critics can be summarised in a single sentence: Not enough of your children are dying.
I refuse to apologise for that, but I urge you to remember that while our children may not be dying, it is not for Hamas’s lack of trying.
Since the beginning of the last round of fighting, thousands of rockets have been launched at Israeli cities, armed terrorists have attempted to execute mass attacks in villages by the border and hundreds of mortars have been aimed at kindergartens and schools. The only reason these attempts at mass killing are not making an impression is that Hamas has failed. The Israeli Defence Forces’ land and air operation, along with Iron Dome, the anti-missile defence system developed by Israel, prevented us from gaining the world’s sympathy in return for images of mutilated Jewish children. Given a choice between sympathetic news coverage and the lives of our children, I choose life.
Hamas chooses otherwise.

Gaza conflict: Hamas chooses to let children die for its own crazy ends - Telegraph

Jihad does not value life, it values death. The death of the infidel is good ,the death of the Martyr is good. They are doing the dead Palestinians a FAVOUR by getting them killed in their ideological opinion. Those that get killed in the "cause" are Martyrs, they get an eternal reward.
The loss of this short life is a small price to pay for eternity in paradise.

Israel doesnt want dead civilians, Hamas does.
Israel wants its civies to live, Hamas wants its civies to die, that serves the cause.

Death is the objective, wether its the suicide bomber, or the jihadist soldier, they dont want peace, they dont want a ceasefire they want death.

Its not simply that they dont care about the palestinian death toll, they embrace it, invite it. They want it ,they encourage it.

They consider the sacrifice worthwhile, in fact its not even a sacrifice. Martyrs are a good thing, the more the merrier

Whats happening in this thread is akin to some maniac parent pushing their child out into a busy freeway, and then blaming the poor bastard who runs him down for the death

 

[mike]

Islamic terror is absolutely cynical, it always was and always will be, and its greatest speciality is taking advantage of every democracy’s main weakness – the fact that we sanctify life.
The average Western viewer sees both sides of the conflict on television. One side is dying and the other side insists on continuing with daily life. One can understand them for taking the side of the injured party, and let’s be absolutely clear – to us, the death of any child, Israeli or Palestinian, is a tragedy. On the other hand, that does not release us from answering the question of who is truly to blame for this tragedy?

The power of these images is the reason that Hamas intentionally builds its missile factories and bunkers underneath civilian homes, stores its ammunition in schools and kindergartens (including United Nations schools), launches its rockets surrounded by civilian families, despite knowing beyond any doubt that it will lead to innocent casualties. Hamas rests its conscience – if it even has one – by announcing that the dead children are “Shahids” who will make it to heaven.
I know it sounds crazy, impossible to understand, but I have no way of helping you with that. I have spent my entire life in the Middle East and I still cannot understand how people can sacrifice their children.
It contradicts everything we know of humanity or parenthood and yet it happens.
The absurd result is that Israel does much more to protect Palestinian children than Hamas and yet many Europeans and many Britons accuse us of being responsible for their deaths.

They ignore the fact that Israel is the only country in the history of wars that calls ahead before we fire. Tens of thousands of Palestinians have received phone calls, text messages and leaflets warning residents to vacate combat zones. Israeli air force sorties were cancelled after the planes were in the air due to reports of civilian presence – all in order to prevent innocent casualties.
But Hamas forbade civilians to leave their homes, put them on rocket factory rooftops, forced the children – its own children – to remain in areas that would clearly become harsh door-to-door combat zones.
For Hamas, it is a win-win situation: either the attack is cancelled and it can go on launching missiles at Israel or the attack succeeds and it can go on launching images of dead children at media outlets around the world.
We also have the option of doing nothing. Some British circles expect that of us. They ask us to accept rocket fire from the skies and terrorist tunnels dug beneath our communities.


Gaza conflict: Hamas chooses to let children die for its own crazy ends - Telegraph

And yet the very title of this thread puts the blame on Israel, no mention of Hamas at all.........

 

[manxman]

But its Israel thats getting demonised here..........Why is that ?

2000 civilians murdered in their home's and on their street's Mike, that's why.

 

[mike]

2000 civilians murdered in their home's and on their street's Mike, that's why.

Yes but its Hama's fault this happened, so why are we blaming Israel and not Hamas.

Its ok for arabs to kill but not jews ?

 

[Tyger]

So why is the deck stacked against Israel in this thread ?

If that is the case - and I don't know that it is - I don't know. Some of the links most definitely fault both sides, but you have to read the articles linked to, or watch some of the videos, to find the balanced view.

If you're so inclined, and have the time, check out the roundtable discussion in the following link -

Charlie Rose round-table discussion on Gaza situation - starts at approx 16:00.

John Micklethwait, editor of the Economist. A discussion about Palestinians and their leadership after latest outbreak of violence in Gaza with Nadia Bilbassy-Charters, Khaled Elgindy, Rula Jebreal and Yousef Munayyer.
LINK: Charlie Rose | charlierose.com

As one of the participants indicates, there is a perversity to the situation, borne out historically. If the Gazans maintain peace, nothing happens. Israel does not keep it's promises. The 'imprisonment' sloughs into a status quo. The US nods off to sleep, so to speak. It is only with the rockets, only with laying lives on the line, that suddenly everyone perks up and says this situation has to find an equitable solution and pays attention.

 

[Tyger]

Yes but its Hama's fault this happened, so why are we blaming Israel and not Hamas.

It is Hamas's 'fault' that they agreed to the Unity government.

Those 2,000 deaths are the direct result of Israeli fear of the Unity government.

Its ok for arabs to kill but not jews ?

No one has said that. You are framing the question in a biased, provocative way.

There is a disparate number of Gazans killed versus Israelis.

When the Israelis stop their oppression, Gaza goes quiet. Historically that has been the case.

 

[mike]

If that is the case - and I don't know that it is - I don't know.

The very name of this thread is stacked, Hamas the root cause, the instigator the group who started this by targeting civilians,and who use their own civilians as human sheilds dont get a mention.

Israel are using their rockets to defend their civilians, Hamas is using their civilians to defend their rockets.

And yet the outrage is directed at Israel ?

Manx has thrown up the numbers, But they are ,at the risk of sounding callous irrelevant, the death of one innocent civilian is a crime against humanity, the numbers dont reflect guilt, they reflect weapons technology. If Hamas had better weapons the toll would be more balanced.

Your blaming the israelis for be better at protecting its civilians, well duh they are not using them as human sheilds.

 

[mike]

No one has said that. You are framing the question in a biased way.

Its most certainly implied by the biased Israel = bad guys sentiment contained not only in the title but contents of this thread.

 

[Tyger]

Its most certainly implied by the biased Israel = bad guys sentiment contained not only in the title but contents of this thread.

That's the way you see the thread title. I don't. Both Israel and Gaza are bombing - the thread title is accurate imo. Not biased.

As for Israel being a bad guy - I think it is , it has become that - just like a lot of countries are. Just like the US is on it's bad days. Israel has gone too far. It's gotten a free pass for decades. It's been able to side-step criticism from the West due to the West's guilt. The free pass is over, I think. Israel is going to be held accountable. Keep in mind that a lot of Jews around the world are saying this. Israel has changed in the last 20 years - and many don't like what they are seeing. I for sure don't like that my tax dollars are going to fund this incessant warring in that area. Just the way it is.

 

[mike]

That's the way you see the thread title. I don't. Both Israel and Gaza are bombing - the thread title is accurate imo. Not biased.

As for Israel being a bad guy - I think it is , it has become that - just like a lot of countries are. Just like the US is on it's bad days. Israel has gone too far. It's gotten a free pass for decades. It's been able to side-step criticism from the West due to the West's guilt. The free pass is over, I think. Israel is going to be held accountable. Keep in mind that a lot of Jews around the world are saying this. Israel has changed in the last 20 years - and many don't like what they are seeing. I for sure don't like that my tax dollars are going to fund this incessant warring in that area. Just the way it is.

No Gaza is not bombing Israel, Hamas is, and then you go on to an anti jewish rant, confirming that you think Israel is indeed the bad guy.

You are happy to blame Israel, but are giving a free pass to poor Hamas the victim.

Not only biased, blindly biased.

In giving Hamas a free pass, you clearly imply its ok for arabs to lob bombs and kill civilians, but not those bad jews.

Its right there in your own words in black and white.

Its understandable though, you are seeing this in the context of our western views on the sanctity of life, in that context of course its bad.

But you have to put emotive reactions to one side, drill down and explore the root cause.

And thats that alien to our western values, Jihadis dont value life, they dont, they VALUE death.

How do you deal with an enemy like that ?
If you are looking for solutions you have to start right there. What strategy can you deply against an enemy who does not value life ?
Not theirs, not yours, not your childrens, not Their childrens.

What strategy do you employ against an enemy that teaches its children at the same time they teach them to crap in the toilet instead of their pants, that You are to be exterminated because their magic sky man demands it.
That your only crime, was being born jewish in lifes lottery.

No one asks to be born into the skin they wear, and no one should be exterminated because of what the lottery handed you.

Whats the solution to an ideology that demands your extermination for no other fault than simply being born (jewish)

 

[mike]

How do you counter an enemy whos definition of peace is your death ?

How do you give him what he wants

listen again, its not about Palestine

It is allah who said they are infidels. They are enemies not because they occupy palestine, they would have been enemies even if they did not occupy a thing.........

 

[mike]

You are looking at this via the western filters that value life
And thus those filters blind you to the reality

The lopsided casualty figures from the current Israel-Gaza war - approaching 300 Palestinians have died as opposed to two Israelis – have caused outrage in some quarters, but IDF officials blame the tactic of both Hamas and Islamic Jihad of embedding themselves among the civilian population to maximize civilian casualties. There have even been reports of Hamas refusing to let civilian residents leave areas under fire, seemingly insisting on them being used as human shields, against the Geneva Convention.

Hamas’ human shields policy has been a longstanding ploy which the leaders of the terror organization attempt to sell to its population as being noble; a chance to be martyred should circumstances dictate.

As far back as 2008 Fathi Hammad, a representative of Hamas, justified his organization’s cynical use of human shields, explaining on Al Aqsa TV, “For the Palestinian people death has become an industry at which women excel, and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the Jihad fighters excel, and the children excel. Accordingly [Palestinians] created a human shield of women, children, the elderly, and the Jihad fighters, against the Zionist bombing machine, as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death as you desire life.”


Israeli official says 14 Hamas operatives spared in bid to minimize civilian casualties | Fox News

 

[Tyger]

No Gaza is not bombing Israel, Hamas is, and then you go on to an anti jewish rant, confirming that you think Israel is indeed the bad guy.

No I did not. Nothing to do with the Jews - everything to do with Israel as a political entity that my tax dollars are supporting. Full stop.

But, Mike, what's the point of all of this for you? It's as though if you see one person who does not accept your view utterly, then you are unhappy. Everyone must abide by the way Mike sees it. Is that it? You're a proselytizer for the Religion-of-Mike it looks like. It's a chat site. It's not worth getting so upset - especially when a great deal of your upset is founded on a skewed sense of things. You certainly have me skewed wrong. (You always have, since I arrived here on this chat site - recall 'The Boy Who Lived Before' thread ? I do. Vividly.)

Anyway, you've said your piece. You've made your points. As have I. I don't see the point of more of the same. JMO.

 

[mike]

And so you attack the person not the datapoints i raised.

Derailing with references to old threads

The debate is indeed over once you have to resort to these tactics

Why not instead debate the data points, how do you deal with an opponent who values death rather than life ?

How do you counter an ideology that calls for your extermination for no other reason than the skin you got born into ?

 

[michaelangel1453]

Of course this thread has been biased, from the start. Mike's points about Hamas are correct. Thousands of rockets, and these weren't mere homemade ones, have been fired into Israel, and Israel had every right to respond as it did, and it did as humanely as possible. I mean, really, gimme a break. I could go on and on echoing Mike's points and repeating my own in this thread, but the fact remains that there's no one Arabs should fear more than their fellow Arabs. They're slaughtering each other by the thousands and thousands over in that murderous cesspool of mutual hatred right now and for years. Israel is trying to protect itself and deservedly so.

But there's something else at work here and I agree with Mike again. The virulence of condemnation of Israel in the face of facts is indeed anti-semitism. You can, as I've quoted Twain several times saying, waltz around with a "simpering gait like a monkey with a parasol," and whine it ain't so, but the sheer determination to refuse to face facts and to look within is something almost to be admired if it wasn't so sick.

It took me at least three posts pointing out the vile crap in that Red Ice interview, culminating in, finally, a list of actual quotes from it before Flipper squealed and squeaked that they were indeed "indefensible." But Tyger "liked" Flipper's post in which the interview's link was embedded, and has said nothing, and Flipper is back in full force. But notice how Tyger coyly admonishes Mike to read and listen to his own links, which leads me to think both he and Flipper had certainly listened to the interview before posting and "liking" it. If it was removed as Flipper said he requested it's on itunes.

Manxman has called me a cocksucker and more, Tyger accused me incessantly and schizophrenically of being Randall and stalking him here. I came on this thread to make it balanced, and the few who are so rabidly anti-Israel have shown themselves to be what they are abundantly. I mean, really, those dominating this thread from the outset wouldn't last any time at all in these societies they moan and whine for.

This thread has sounded from its inception like 1984's Two Minute Hate against Goldstein, except this has gone on for weeks.

And Tyger, Randall has returned to posting in the forums after a brief absence, so perhaps you might contact him like a real man instead of a squeaking girl and accuse him of being me. And find those quotes from the Red Ice interview about the Jews stabbing Germany in the back in WWI which caused the Great Depression which caused WWII, and tell me if you agree with them. And that was just one.

 

[flipper]

On the Misrepresentations of Gaza in Canadian News Coverage

Middle East Professor Ariel Salzmann and activist Azeezah Kanji cite specific examples of how Canadian media has misrepresented the ongoing assault and how the Harper government aims to fuel this conflict to ensure high prices for Tar Sands oil - August 11, 14

 

[Tyger]

Why not instead debate the data points, how do you deal with an opponent who values death rather than life ?

How do you counter an ideology that calls for your extermination for no other reason than the skin you got born into.

Without going into it, I just don't live my life reacting in an aggtressive way. You frame 'reality' in one way. For you the answers are obvious within that frame. I do not have to live my life within any one else's frame. We makes choices. Sometimes our choices are sorely tested but we have to keep making the choices for peace and goodness and kindness. For forgiveness. Not the easy way at all btw. Such a path takes considerable intestinal fortitude. Ask anyone who has had to face real evil and not succumb to evil themselves.

People are wrong sometimes. People change. We all have our story. We all have something to forgive one way or another.