Gaza Israel bombings

[Bananas]

This thread was about Gaza , and not about fanatic idiots.

Am I the only one who finds this comment incredibly ironic?

 

[flipper]

There have been generations and generations of whole families lost to centuries of hatred, terror: wasted bloodshed.

This is not so. Arabs and Jews lived quite peacefully together in the land called Palestine until British decided to support Zionist Jews with the creation of a Jewish homeland. The Balfour Declaration was part of a resettlement plan of Jews from Europe to Palestine.

Not all Palestinians are Hammas

Hammas won the Palestine election and is therefore the legal government of Palestine. They are now the government of Gaza, as much as Israel will allow .

But both sides teach their children to hate and be prepared for war.

I do not know that Palestinians teach their child to hate, if anyone does it would be the Israelis, but we do know from, Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel, that the Israelis do.

What we're watching unfold here are the last desperate flailings of an impoverished people under siege. It is what it is and sympathies go where they go.

I do not think people have sympathy for the Palestinians, rather people are outraged by their wholesale slaughter

 

[boomerang]

I tend to see formal religions as expressions of tribal and ethnic identity as opposed to the cause of them. Formal religion therefore becomes more a moral and psychological justification for war than its underlying cause. Consider that the concept of nationhood, much less the "global village" of today, is an eyeblink in the long history of mankind's history of warfare.

So IMO, I don't think we can lay blame for war and perfidy on either a particular religion or religion in general. Underlying causes and possible solutions are both more complex.

Islam would seem the warring religion du jour. But history is replete with numerous philosophical rationalizations for violence. Consider the religious wars of Europe between variants of Christianity which killed off roughly one third of the population of Germany from the early 1500s to the mid 1600s. This must have more closely resembled the kind of sectarian violence between sects of Islam than between major religions. This must be but one of thousands of such examples in human history.

On the surface this is all about proving whose god is greater by means of force. But this is really no explanation. Looking deeper into human needs and how we self-organize to fulfill them seems a more productive approach.

 

[Bananas]

There is an awesome quote by Genghis when the Caliph of Baghdad said that god would punish him for attacking:

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

That was his justification It's also important to note that he wasn't religious at all, and that his idea of a "god" was just the universal force, not one with personality or anything like the abrahamic version.

 

[mike]

Hold up there for a second, Mike. I can post tons of pics of people in the west dressing their kids in t-shirts that says, "God hates fags!" or quotes from young western men posting all over twitter, YouTube etc.: " Rape & kill all women." Does this mean that all Christians and all western men are either psychopathic, deranged, hateful or mysoginist? In fact just what is it about the western world that seems to relish in teaching their young boys to hate and rape women? Is all of the western world a mysoginist, pedophiliac den of depravity - hardly.

Just because there are some people in a group that express delusional ideas about their religion does not mean that any one religion or group of people should own the mantle of monsters and psychopaths. That sounds fairly inflammatory to me and just resonates as anti-Islamic propaganda. It's that type of propaganda that has been used for years to demonize Palestinians and comfortably bomb them out of existence. It seems to me that everyone's forgotten who started the whole car-bombing craze in the middle east.

There's no question that terrorism and religion have combined to create a giant mess of civilization since we've been organizing ourselves that way, but once we get over using faith as a fulcrum for violence we might actually get ourselves through this current century and into a place of dialogue and respect. How are we to move forward on Palestine and Israel if either side simply chooses to perpetuate myths about what their faith is all about?

I think if anyone here were to spend time tallying up all the Palestinian children bombed while in schools, homes, hospitals, or list the many example of the apartheid ideology that is being applied to Palestine you could just as easily be immersed in the rhetoric of, "How can you possibly reasons with people like that?" Isn't that exactly what any fundamentalist says about their enemy to keep hate burning?

Dialogue begins by looking at the core of who a people are. You must speak to their better nature, and ignore all the ideologues and rhetoric. Though in the middle east that's a pretty hard thing to do as it's all about revenge and anguish.

Oh i agree religion creates idiots, god hates fags is a classic example.

But this example goes a step further, its not just expressing gods alleged opinion, its enacting those sentiment in the real world.

People are being beheaded, westborough church didnt actually kill any fags.
These guys are taking it that extra step, and brutally murdering people.

In Iraq its so insane muslims are killing muslims because one group choose to venerate their holy men (bit like catholics do saints)
And for IS thats idolatry, and the punishment is having your head hacked off.

That psych report nails it, Islam does create monsters

 

[mike]

Am I the only one who finds this comment incredibly ironic?

I hope that was the point, the alternative is stupidity

Kids Dressed as Terrorists in Pro-Jihad Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony in Gaza | TheBlaze.com

Yesterday, we reported about the Palestinian puppet show in East Jerusalem teaching the children that while it’s bad to smoke, it’s admirable to tote a machine gun and target Jews.
Now it appears that no child is left behind in Gaza, where kindergarteners recently held a jihad-promoting graduation ceremony replete with camouflage make-up, fatigues, fake machine guns and a kiddie version of water-boarding.
Ynet News translates from Islamic Jihad’s website which posted the photos:
“It is our obligation to educate the children to love the resistance, Palestine and Jerusalem, so they will recognize the importance of Palestine and who its enemy is,” the kindergarten’s director said.
The children were dressed up in uniforms of Jihad’s armed-wing, the al-Quds Brigades, and each of them received a toy rifle [...]
One child, Hamza, said “When I grow up I’ll join Islamic Jihad and the al-Quds Brigades. I’ll fight the Zionist enemy and fire missiles at it until I die as a shahid [martyr] and join my father in heaven.
“I love the resistance and the martyrs and Palestine, and I want to blow myself up on Zionists and kill them on a bus in a suicide bombing,” he said.


Putting aside the larger issue for a moment ask youselves this

Which are the better parents ? the ones who let their children be children and let the army deal with such adult topics
Or those that think its ok to teach their kids killing is OK, dying for the cause is OK.

These are not things any child should be grasping with.

That this culture doesnt even understand such a basic thing, speaks to their mental and moral maturity.

Whats the solution to a culture that values death more than life, what can you offer them , what is it you exchange for peace, when death is the only currency they will accept in the transaction

 

[junius]

Just think about all that natural gas beneath Gaza. Discovered by BP in the year 2000, by coincidence the same year Israel imposed a naval blockade. Since the original estimate by BP (billions of dollars worth), it seems that Gaza has even more natural gas than initially thought...perhaps this explains why - in terms of geo politics. The USA and the UK especially, are not really keen on official sanctions or arms embargo against Israel, BUT quite the opposite for Russia and the situation in the Ukraine (Where there are also strategic natural gas and pipeline interests the West wants to ensure it maintains control of).

 

[Stagger Lee]

I have a simple solution. Drop crates of blue jeans and rock n roll over Arabic lands.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, The Beatles!"

 

[Wade]

Hamas Scare Clip Becomes Israel's Summer Hit - In Other News... - News - Arutz Sheva

 

[Tyger]

Just think about all that natural gas beneath Gaza. Discovered by BP in the year 2000, by coincidence the same year Israel imposed a naval blockade. Since the original estimate by BP (billions of dollars worth), it seems that Gaza has even more natural gas than initially thought...perhaps this explains why - in terms of geo politics. The USA and the UK especially, are not really keen on official sanctions or arms embargo against Israel, BUT quite the opposite for Russia and the situation in the Ukraine (Where there are also strategic natural gas and pipeline interests the West wants to ensure it maintains control of).

Further back in the thread I posted a link to an article reporting that a 'Dick Cheney-related' company has been given rights - what kind I don't know, drilling? - over the gas and oil in Gaza. Accurate? No time to check bona fides.

Light Bulb Idea: That's why they are leveling the place. They needs these guys out. How do you evict 1.8 million people?

 

[Tyger]

I have a simple solution. Drop crates of blue jeans and rock n roll over Arabic lands.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, The Beatles!"

A solution!!!!!

 

[Burnt State]

Oh i agree religion creates idiots, god hates fags is a classic example.

But this example goes a step further, its not just expressing gods alleged opinion, its enacting those sentiment in the real world.

People are being beheaded, westborough church didnt actually kill any fags.
These guys are taking it that extra step, and brutally murdering people.

In Iraq its so insane muslims are killing muslims because one group choose to venerate their holy men (bit like catholics do saints)
And for IS thats idolatry, and the punishment is having your head hacked off.

That psych report nails it, Islam does create monsters

The ideology of homophobia creates the environment for the hate inspired murder of non-heterosexuals in north America annually. The western world propaganda of mysogyny causes young men, trained in the ways of violence and hatred by video games where you get points for beating women, the sexist jokes their fathers tell and by the violent sexist pornography they consume individually in thousands of hours of viewing every year. So you tell me which culture is diseased and backwards?

I'd post the Internet meme image, "Don't rap it and tap it. Next time tale her and rape her but it's just too visually disturbing what some men find acceptable. These mainstream images illustrate the point well enough. No need to post the, "Your man card just got reissued" with the erect, assault rifle either. Every two minutes a woman is sexually assaulted in north America. The west creates monsters!

Mike, I respect a lot of your positions on a number of topics but on the subject of Islamaphobia and which cultures are uncivilized it would seem we stand on opposite sides. Niccolai Sennels, IMHO, and in the opinion of many, many others academics etc., is a racist ideologue, spouting hitler like rhetoric in order to win votes and "purge" Europe of all the Muslims that are "invading" & "swamping" all the good, peaceful, Christiam white folk. His content drips with hatred and in no way, shape or form is considered a rational psychological examination of Muslims and how they raise their children. If anything the diseased minds of the West have much to answer for in how they have trained a good chunk of their young men to be rapists and murderers of women on publicly accepted national stages. And that's not propaganda, but actually statistically available to see when we look at who murders, beats & rapes women and children in the west.

Depravity is never owned by any single culture or faith is the point I'm making here. I also believe we need to look a little more at the planks in our own eye blocking our field of vision of hate alive in our own cultures.

I have been a teacher for twenty years in what is considered one of the most diverse, multicultural major urban centers in southern Ontario. I have watched the increase of Muslim youth in my classes and these are a few of my observations by way of comparison and contrast with western culture and about their integration into society:

• They are far less violent compared to their western counterparts.
• Their daughters are regarded as sacred pearls to be cared for and should not be touched by other men.
• The religion is very conservative and aligns itself with very similar, conservative values as seen in Christianity.
• In my International Baccalaureate classes they are tops in the class often, heading for dynamic careers in medicine, law and engineering, yet capable of leading creative, brilliant dramatic works exploring human rights in Canada.
• They are not isolated in the school (in my school we have kids from over 120 different nations of origin) but are studious, class clowns, get into trouble, play football, lead the debating groups and participate in our school ambassador, volunteer and social justice groups in equal measure.
• They can feel picked on by peers, are labelled terrorists (especially during the post 9-11 months), have had hijabs ripped off their heads by their western peers in grade school and sometimes feel the sting of being the outsider the way Jews felt post WWII in north America.
• The prime minister of our student body, in a Catholic school, will be an outstanding young Muslim woman who is a spirited, outgoing and celebratory leader. She is going to rock our school next year!

I could go on....

So that B.S, spouted by Sennels is just hate speech. Here in Canada we all watch Little Mosque on the Prairie and enjoy all the good laughs that come along when diverse cultures merge and mix. His crap is a fabrication of pure rhetoric & hatred. He only fuels the fire of propaganda. Highlighting extreme actions of individuals in groups serves no purpose. There's a lot of western Christian parents who attempt to exorcise their kids every year and sometimes kill them in the process, but I'm not about to lead a rallying cry to kick them out of my society because I know they don't represent the majority.

So can we tone the rhetoric down a bit, everyone, before this turns into a mud slinging match of whose culture is more depraved and uncivilized? That's a fruitless journey that ignores the peaceful lived reality of the majority of most people. Any group can be demonized and that can have grave consequences for how the mob mentality, in turn, responds to them. See Nazi Germany in response to Jewish neighbours, and see how the strains of such fascist, violent promoting ideologues currenbreed violence against Muslms, Roma and Jews across the ever changing face of Europe.

People need to go back and listen to Public Enemy's Fear of a Black Planet album and remember, the world changes, and your kids might marry someone with a different skin colour and from a different religion. I did and things worked out brilliantly. Less hate of difference us what we need. Recognize the tactics of the past.

 

[Bananas]

If it's just "rhetoirc" then why are so many Arab nations under Sharia Law? Do you even know what that is? Also, to get a better idea about what people are *actually* like, you should live in a country that takes refugees, not rich kids. Every EU country that has taken in refugees from Islamic countries has a huge problem with their Muslim population. Every. Single. One. It must be nice and cozy when you don't have to deal with the average Muslim.

 

[junius]

Further back in the thread I posted a link to an article reporting that a 'Dick Cheney-related' company has been given rights - what kind I don't know, drilling? - over the gas and oil in Gaza. Accurate? No time to check bona fides.

Light Bulb Idea: That's why they are leveling the place. They needs these guys out. How do you evict 1.8 million people?

Yes you're quite right. Also look at the Jewish agency for Israel 2013/2014 report. Note the list of donors: ($500 million or more donated by Noble energy)
Overview - nobleenergyinc.com


"Noble Energy’s high-quality portfolio is distinguished by its diversity, exploration component and sizeable international holdings. Each asset fills an important role in a portfolio that balances lower-risk development projects with high-potential exploration activities. With an asset mix that includes both United States and international opportunities in oil and natural gas, we have many options that allow us to employ our knowledge, replicate our successes and create value for many years to come".

 

[Burnt State]

If it's just "rhetoirc" then why are so many Arab nations under Sharia Law? Do you even know what that is? Also, to get a better idea about what people are *actually* like, you should live in a country that takes refugees, not rich kids. Every EU country that has taken in refugees from Islamic countries has a huge problem with their Muslim population. Every. Single. One. It must be nice and cozy when you don't have to deal with the average Muslim.

Sharia law is just another name for Patriarchy. Both are backwards. States should never be run based on religion. It's easy to pick apart developing cultures and ancient elements of patriarchy or tribalism that persist in order to maintain male power. But these things do eventually begin to fade under civil liberties and equity legislation. It just takes a very long time. We still suffer fom Patriarchy here in the west as per my post above.

The kids I get range from Afghani refugees to middle class immigrants. But stop and listen to your language for a second, "It must be nice and cozy when you don't have to deal with the average Muslim." Is that like saying the average Black, or average Jew? Or do you mean to translate that as those good Blacks, and good Muslims - they're ok? It's the racist sentimnt that is the problem here. All communities around the world are changing due to immigration and we should all expect to have a Chinese uncle in the family in a couple of generations, and yes, our kids will be brown coloured. It's probably a better way to deal with the increase of skin cancer.

 

[Bananas]

Sharia law is just another name for Patriarchy.

NO. It really, really, really isn't.

Both are backwards. States should never be run based on religion.

Yet they are, and the average Mulsim wants it that way.

The kids I get range from Afghani refugees to middle class immigrants. But stop and listen to your language for a second, "It must be nice and cozy when you don't have to deal with the average Muslim." Is that like saying the average Black, or average Jew? Or do you mean to translate that as those good Blacks, and good Muslims - they're ok?

No, it means exactly how it's stated. I don't live in a country that's gone crazy about political correctess, so I care little for the way I formulate what I say. I actually mean what I say, nothing more and nothing less.

It's the racist sentimnt that is the problem here.

Nothing to do with racism. The "average Mulsim" could be white, black, brown, yellow, pink, green or purple, makes 0 difference.

All communities around the world are changing due to immigration and we should all expect to have a Chinese uncle in the family in a couple of generations, and yes, our kids will be brown coloured. It's probably a better way to deal with the increase of skin cancer.

Nothing to do with skin colour, everything to do with Ideology. And before you try to throw more hyperbole at me, my aunt married someone from Kongo, my cousin is half-black. I grew up with that and the colour of your skin means less to me than the shirt your wearing. If your shirt says "I love Jesus" I'll think you're an idiot regardless.

Really, you should do some digging into the social problems that have arisen in Europe after we started taking in Muslims. The biggest problem is that they refuse to adapt to the culture, at all, and get loud - sometimes violent - when others don't respect their culture yet they despise the Western culture.

 

[Burnt State]

You'll forgive me when I say that your own disgruntlement and the disgruntled immigrants around you are the common standards of society shifting and adjusting itself - it's how it goes. It's easy to complain, but harder and more rewarding to work directly with immigrant communities to ease integration and promote understanding between new neighbours. Give it a try. It might put a smile on your face as you learn about the struggles of what's like to try to settle in an intolerant society. I'm sure your own ancestors went through similar problems.

 

[Bananas]

You'll forgive me when I say that your own disgruntlement and the disgruntled immigrants around you are the common standards of society shifting and adjusting itself - it's how it goes. It's easy to complain, but harder and more rewarding to work directly with immigrant communities to ease integration and promote understanding between new neighbours. Give it a try. It might put a smile on your face as you learn about the struggles of what's like to try to settle in an intolerant society. I'm sure your own ancestors went through similar problems.

These people do not *want* to work with anyone, that's the problem. Also, intolerant society? You obviously know *nothing* of Finland. As for my ancestors? Even if that was in any way relevant, you know nothing of Finnish history, either. You just like to attribute my opinions to an american lol.

EDIT: We are so intolerant as a nation that we have openly homosexual people in the parliament, female priests and our last president was female.

 

[kanakaris]

These people do not *want* to work with anyone, that's the problem. Also, intolerant society? You obviously know *nothing* of Finland. As for my ancestors? Even if that was in any way relevant, you know nothing of Finnish history, either. You just like to attribute my opinions to an american lol.

EDIT: We are so intolerant as a nation that we have openly homosexual people in the parliament, female priests and our last president was female.

Nonsense, i live amongst them and they make excellent kebab.

 

[mike]

To reply directly to the thread title.

The fire bombing of dresden, killed 25,000 people. old people, women, children ,babies. Hospitals and schools destroyed
The fire fire bombing of Tokyo 1.5 million , many old people. women. children, babies. Hostpitals and schools destroyed

The Operation Meetinghouse air raid of 9–10 March 1945 was later estimated to be the single most destructive bombing raid in history.[2]

Hiroshima..... Nagasaki.........

Civilians targeted, and destroyed on a scale that makes Gaza look like a soccer riot in comparrison

And for exactly the same reasons, The Rank hypocrisy then to criticise Israel for doing the same and for the same reasons.
Both the british and the US have Nukes, a weapon that if deployed will kill civilians on a grand scale, Old people Women children babies, destroying hospitals and schools.

Both nations have done and reserve the right to do the same thing again.

Its real easy to sit on the other side of the world with miles of ocean between you and the Islamic Jihad that drives Hamas and criticise.

Oh but the Israelis are stealing land........

Many conflicts were local, involving disputes over land use, and some entailed cycles of reprisal. Particularly in later years, conflicts were spurred by ideologies such as Manifest Destiny, which held that the United States was destined to expand from coast to coast on the North American continent. In the 1830s, the United States had a policy of Indian removal east of the Mississippi River, which was a planned, large-scale removal of indigenous peoples from the areas where Europeans were settling. Particularly in the years leading up to Congressional passage of the related act, there was armed conflict between settlers and Native Americans

To break the Indians' will to fight the colonists attacked their villages. A typical village was surrounded by a palisade or fence of pointed logs, and contained rows of wigwams or longhouses. Burning it down had little effect, since it was easy to rebuild. Surprising it full of people was difficult after the Indians learned what happened to the Pequots at Mystic. The sure way to defeat the Indians was to destroy their winter food.
The crops were harvested in the fall, and stored for the winter when hunting was less productive. Burning the growing crops would threaten the very survival of the band.

The first principles of sovereignty to the European mind were that only the state was allowed to use violence, and that all groups living in a specified territory had to acknowledge the authority of the government. Anyone who could not abide these rules had to be destroyed. Puritans were grim soldiers who believed fervently that God was behind them. They saw the "savages" as heathens outside God's protection--their warpaint, stone age culture, and casual use of torture indicated they were at best tools of the devil, and at worst wild animals. "They act like wolves and are to be dealt with as wolves," pronounced the Rev. Solomon Stoddard.

And yes when those indians raided a homestead or ranch, the US army would go in and kill the entire tribe sometimes, civilians Old people, Women, children.......

The Mystic massacre took place on May 26, 1637, during the Pequot War, when English settlers under Captain John Mason, and Narragansett and Mohegan allies set fire to a fortified Pequot village near the Mystic River. They shot any people who tried to escape the wooden palisade fortress and killed the entire village, consisting mostly of women and children, in retaliation for previous Pequot attacks

Its funny how when we are the targets, we can justify doing the exact same thing to our enemys. But When those dirty jews do it.........

And thats why it is indeed Anti-semitism

Im sure they will cheer you on here

Stormfront - White Nationalist Community

If your neigbours were training their kids to be suicide bombers, if it were your buses that were being blown up by Islamic Jihadi neighbours, you'd want them gone too.
You'd want them corraled and marginalised, you'd want to blockade their resources so they cant grow and become a larger threat (In the same way native americans were put on reserves that didnt have the resources needed for growth).

The British and US were justified in wiping out civilians and their infrasructure on scales that make Gaza look like a kindergarten fight, because they were the enemy and they posed a risk to your soldiers and civilians, and they had no other choice.

Its the exact same here, just on a smaller scale. The Israelies at least drop pamphlets and send text messages and phone calls to the targeted areas.

The civies in Dresden and Tokyo didnt get any such consideration........

The criticism here isnt about killing civilians, women and children. Thats happened all through history is happening today in places outside Palestine.
This is about Jews killing civilians...... And thats Anti Semitism.