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I see the disconnect. You apparently want to argue that you can know something about the region outside what humans have the ability to experience by thinking about it. You are mixing the domains.

Almost but not quite. Your mixing up the contexts and assuming it's what I mean. It should read something like:
  • "You apparently want to argue that you can know something about the region outside what humans have the ability to directly experience or observe by thinking about it." ( which is true and an example was given ).
Attempting to identify the disconnect: Because your qualifier for falseness is the part where you say " by virtue of the inexperienceable nature of the real world in which we actually move and have our being." you are in effect saying:
  1. If x resides in the real world it must be false because it cannot be experienced.
  2. You also posit that "tales" ( claims ) of things that cannot be perceived through our senses are also "false" for the same reason as 1. above.
So interestingly, to me it seems that it is you who is mixing up the contexts and that what you really mean is:
  • Because tales cannot be perceived in the same way as objects in the real world, and because we cannot perceive the real world directly anyway, we have insufficient reason to believe such tales are true.
Is that closer?
 
Is that closer?


No. The stories people tell about things they cannot experience are untrue because they haven't experienced them. This precludes the notion that they might luck up and imagine something that just happens to be true about something they cannot experience.

If you believe otherwise that is up to you, I do not.

If you want to get somewhere simply do what I suggested way back in post 362. To prove my hypothesis incorrect provide one tale of some event, being, or communication which is claimed to come from somewhere other than human consciousness that has proven to be "true."
 
Yes, same page. To me, if our consciousness is a non-local phenom, it would answer a lot of questions about seemingly paranormal events. Can't write much now, the blood thirsty masters & overlords want me to "work"...Piffle....imagine that?

Damn those blood thirsty masters & overlords!

OK so when you get the time. I think we may be onto something and maybe we'll both learn something new. Because we are on the same page it means that:
  • We are dependent on the brain at the remote location to receive sensory input, process information and relay it to our local consciousness ... therefore ...
  • Memory ( required for remote information processing prior to being relayed ) also resides at the remote location.
  • Intelligence ( arising from the remote processing of the remote sensory information and memory ) also resides at the remote location.
  • Therefore it would seem that there is an intelligent being independent of us at the remote location.
It also seems apparent that:
  • Awareness of our local environment is suppressed until all remote brain function ceases, after which time we don't know what happens.
  • Awareness of local memory ( and in particular our local environment ) is suppressed until remote brain death, after which time we don't know what happens.
Possibilities after remote brain death:
  • Either our local awareness also ceases to function ( or is deleted or whatever ) and we cease to exist in both locations or ...
  • We have a continuity of consciousness that leaves us with these possibilities:
  1. No new data input. All awareness would be the result of internal processing and dependent on regaining access to memory copied to the local memory database from the remote session(s).
  2. New data input would be switched to either a local or new remote source.
You can see that the model we are discussing has some problems, particularly the duality of existence between the remote intelligence and the local intelligence. When the remote brain dies, it would also seem that a real part of one's self and an entirely separate being have both died. So it seems to complicate rather than simplify things. However if we consider the basic concept of non-local existence in the context of the Computational Model we've been discussing as an explanation for our cosmological existence, then in essence, everything is unified because in reality there is no local or remote location. What we believe to be here as compared to there is an illusion. Our entire existence is composed of information that is processed and stored and recalled as needed by the system responsible for this realm. I believe that if you map all the paranormal phenomena you might attribute to the non-local model to the Computational model, you'll find it fits as well or better ... or perhaps not. How about a few examples to run some comparisons? What phenomenon were you thinking fits?
 
No. The stories people tell about things they cannot experience are untrue because they haven't experienced them. This precludes the notion that they might luck up and imagine something that just happens to be true about something they cannot experience.

If you believe otherwise that is up to you, I do not.

If you want to get somewhere simply do what I suggested way back in post 362. To prove my hypothesis incorrect provide one tale of some event, being, or communication which is claimed to come from somewhere other than human consciousness that has proven to be "true."

Hmm ... OK you're clearer now, however if there is the possibility of an exception, then it isn't a valid argument to simply declare something to be false and disqualify the possibility that it could be true to suit your bias. In an objective evaluation, the best you can do is claim that there is insufficient evidence to claim it's true. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
 
Hmm ... OK you're clearer now, however if there is the possibility of an exception, then it isn't a valid argument to simply declare something to be false and disqualify the possibility that it could be true to suit your bias. In an objective evaluation, the best you can do is claim that there is insufficient evidence to claim it's true. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Consider it a falsifiable hypothesis. Falsify it by providing an example.
 
Consider it a falsifiable hypothesis. Falsify it by providing an example.

The absence of an example that falsifies a hypothesis doesn't mean the hypothesis it is automatically true. Somewhat ironically, in the context of our discussion, it also means that if an example could be provided, it would also have been something that was "experienced" therefore disqualifying the example itself. So even if there were some hypothetical example floating around out there, it can never be used. Therefore I suggest we need to come up with another way of looking at the problem. This particular approach seems to be a dead end. Have you got any other suggestions or ideas?
 
The absence of an example that falsifies a hypothesis doesn't mean the hypothesis it is automatically true. Somewhat ironically, in the context of our discussion, it also means that if an example could be provided, it would also have been something that was "experienced" therefore disqualifying the example itself. So even if there were some hypothetical example floating around out there, it can never be used. Therefore I suggest we need to come up with another way of looking at the problem. This particular approach seems to be a dead end. Have you got any other suggestions or ideas?
i suggest you hit up posey for a few shrooms...
 
Damn those blood thirsty masters & overlords!

OK so when you get the time. I think we may be onto something and maybe we'll both learn something new. Because we are on the same page it means that:
  • We are dependent on the brain at the remote location to receive sensory input, process information and relay it to our local consciousness ... therefore ...
  • Memory ( required for remote information processing prior to being relayed ) also resides at the remote location.
  • Intelligence ( arising from the remote processing of the remote sensory information and memory ) also resides at the remote location.
  • Therefore it would seem that there is an intelligent being independent of us at the remote location.
It also seems apparent that:

  • Awareness of our local environment is suppressed until all remote brain function ceases, after which time we don't know what happens.
  • Awareness of local memory ( and in particular our local environment ) is suppressed until remote brain death, after which time we don't know what happens.
Possibilities after remote brain death:

  • Either our local awareness also ceases to function ( or is deleted or whatever ) and we cease to exist in both locations or ...
  • We have a continuity of consciousness that leaves us with these possibilities:
  1. No new data input. All awareness would be the result of internal processing and dependent on regaining access to memory copied to the local memory database from the remote session(s).
  2. New data input would be switched to either a local or new remote source.
You can see that the model we are discussing has some problems, particularly the duality of existence between the remote intelligence and the local intelligence. When the remote brain dies, it would also seem that a real part of one's self and an entirely separate being have both died. So it seems to complicate rather than simplify things. However if we consider the basic concept of non-local existence in the context of the Computational Model we've been discussing as an explanation for our cosmological existence, then in essence, everything is unified because in reality there is no local or remote location. What we believe to be here as compared to there is an illusion. Our entire existence is composed of information that is processed and stored and recalled as needed by the system responsible for this realm. I believe that if you map all the paranormal phenomena you might attribute to the non-local model to the Computational model, you'll find it fits as well or better ... or perhaps not. How about a few examples to run some comparisons? What phenomenon were you thinking fits?


Wow. Quite the evaluation. Essentially your summations are very close to what I've studied. I have no idea what to add.
Unfortunatly, I have no idea how to test any of those hypotheses.
Since the subject we are discussing can be tricky, I will try to specify what questions we are looking at.

1.What is consciousness?
2.Is there life after death?
3. What is the nature of life?(maybe?)

Yes? No? What?

What phenomenon was I thinking?.....Ghosts and hauntings, psychic abilities (if they do exist), collective unconsciousness, and other supposedly consciousness oriented events.

Let me think on definitions of those questions.
 
Wow. Quite the evaluation. Essentially your summations are very close to what I've studied. I have no idea what to add. Unfortunatly, I have no idea how to test any of those hypotheses. Since the subject we are discussing can be tricky, I will try to specify what questions we are looking at.

1.What is consciousness?
2.Is there life after death?
3. What is the nature of life?(maybe?)

What phenomenon was I thinking?.....Ghosts and hauntings, psychic abilities (if they do exist), collective unconsciousness, and other supposedly consciousness oriented events. Let me think on definitions of those questions.

Sure Doc ... always interesting to contemplate this stuff.
 
Ancientsaturn, the bible was written by man not god. man created god not the other way around. if a whale, dolphin, chimpanzee, cuttlefish or other such intelligent creature worshipped god then you might be on to something.
Agreed, man wrote the Bible. I don't think that was ever in dispute, do you? How you then jump to man creating God is a non sequitur. The cuttlefish sounds kind of cute, even tasty, but not sure what it wants with the Bible. :-)
 
Another dodge, a fairly standard tactic when the tough questions get asked, deflect deflect deflect.

No one is arguing man isnt violent, and often evil.

Thats not the question

The question is does this god enitity "command" unspeakable acts



This is just one of any number of similiar attrocities commanded by god. this dialog is god speaking saying "I" will do these things

If a man were to capture a woman, rape her, kill her children and dash her "helpless babies" to the death, you KNOW thats evil right ?

So why is it OK when god commands it ?

Nor did you answer the question, if god commanded YOU to do these things, would you obey the command ?

I am not dodging anything. We have different understandings of the Bible, human history, reincarnation and life in general. I honestly can't say I know the "mind of God" or what is meant in all parts of the Bible. I personally mainly study the New Testament, and I don't enforce a literal interpretation. I know full well the Bible was written by men, that should not be an issue of dispute. The question is the level of inspiration of these men. Infallibility is not the issue. From a spiritual scientific perspective you have to assess the significance and meaning of all parts of the Bible. They not only were written by men, by they were compiled and edited by men. If you are hanging your hat on the infallibility of the Bible, then that is a weak approach. So I think my answer will be unsatisfying for you, as I am not a traditional mainstream Christian.

In fact, I think your question is a good one. Yet to address it, you have to go far into a discussion of what God is as a being. I don't claim to know all aspects of this being. What I know is that there is a spiritual world, and as such there must be some origin to the spiritual world. I call this origin, God. He is the ground of all existence. Men wrote about this being as though he had wrath and vengeance at one point in human history. The New Testament has none of this wrath or vengeance, at least in my interpretation.

" if god commanded YOU to do these things, would you obey the command ?"
No, and God is not ever going to command me to do anything. Your whole question is based on a certain interpretation of the Bible without any historical context. Modern man has morality within, and does not require commandments. Historically there was a time when men needed to be commanded, they wanted this. But I'm not going to try and convince you of that, I'm simply answering your question.
 
I don't understand Ancientsaturn - you agree the bible was authored by men? I mean everyone knows it was written by men but the question is whether there was any divine inspiration, i.e that God himself sort of dictated what he wanted people to hear? For that you have to believe that these guys were sitting somewhere someday and POOF! Ah! I hear you god, ok, ahah, yes, I've got it......anything else supreme being? All for today? Good, yes god. And on and on.

I am making light of it but you get the idea. Anyway, for me the question of whether to be a christian or not is based on the belief the bible is the dictated word of god and that Jesus was a supernatural-born son sent by god to save the souls/lives of mankind.

I see it as perfectly possible to really enjoy the content of the bible in terms of a guide for living and that it is possible to not believe the bible literally but still get plenty from it. Then there are those that take all or too much literally.

But even if the bible is full of good lessons etc there is still a big difference in living by those lessons and actually believing Jesus was special and rose from the dead etc? Either the weird, godly supernatural stuff actually happened or it did not. In one universe being a christian might be the sensible thing to be but I happen to think it was nothing supernatural whatsoever and fully authored by men. I would not follow anything written down by men claiming to be writing on behalf of god cos odds are they are writing what they want, not what god actually told them. It's horseshit with zero evidence for the supernatural. There is zero difference between believing the supernatural aspects of the bible or believing Marvel comics reflect reality.
 
You're talking pure nonsense right here. There's plenty of evidence, even if you don't choose to acknowledge it, that mutations are the cause of what you call progressive forms. Here's a simple example of natural selection and the mutations that cause it:

1.
Antibiotics are used to control diseases caused by bacteria in humans and animals. The antibiotics mimic the normal food of the bacteria, and upon ingestion, the bacteria are killed. However, there have been increasing problems of bacteria showing resistance to our common antibiotics.
bactresistance.gif

The graph above shows that the bacteria naturally have genes which show a lot of variation in terms of resistance to the antibiotic. Those at the left are easily killed by the antibiotic, while those at the right are only completely killed by higher antibiotic dosages.

2.
A low to medium dosage of antibiotics is given to the patient. This kills all the bacteria except those that are most resistant to the antibiotic to the right of the graph.
bactresistance1.gif



3.
These highly resistant bacteria reproduce. Some of their offspring will be less resistant to the antibiotic, but some will have mutations that allow them to be more resistant than their predecessors. The overall resistance to this antibiotic has shifted to greater resistance.
bactresistance2.gif


4.
An even higher dose of antibiotic is administered to the patient. This higher dosage kills many of the bacteria, but sometimes some of the highly resistant bacteria survive. If this happens, variation within the population will usually mean that some will be genetically less resistant, but others will be even more resistant.
bactresistance3.gif

If a new antibiotic is administered to the patient, many of these resistant bacteria will not have resistance to the new antibiotic, so they will die. Those that survive however, will have the ability to survive the new antibiotic. Thus, over time, antibiotics lose their ability to be effective to most bacterial pathogens.
Summary: "Bacterial populations show variation in resistance to antibiotics. When exposed to the antibiotic, only those with mutations allowing resistance survive. As the survivors reproduce, their young will show variation, but with slightly more with the resistance gene.
Again, only those that are resistant survive. Over many generations, the population gradually shifts so that most bacteria in the population have the resistance gene."





Looks like a lot of direct evidence for natural selection to me. I don't claim to be a scientist, but you do. So either you haven't really researched evolutionary theory as well as you'd like us to believe, in which case you should probably avoid making broad statements on something which you clearly know nothing about. Or you knew about this evidence and chose to discard it because it doesn't fit your pre conceived notions. Which one is it?;)

Neither, your logic is flawed. This first case you give, of antibiotics, shows that bacteria can adapt to their environment. However, this does not demonstrate forward natural selection. If there were mutations that resulted in new species, then you would have an argument. There are never new species that result from bacteria mutations. The only change is a variation within a species, which was well known to occur well before Darwin. It is certainly not evidence of natural selection to say that each human being looks different than one another. It is a simple variation, not a mechanism.

The other problem with the antibiotic example is the fact that the new strains of bacteria lose functionality with the mutation. In other words, they are actually less fit for survival. When they are returned to a normal environment, they fail. This is significant, because once again there is no demonstration of forward selection, where a feature is adding to the existing capabilities of the organism. The mutation is a variation, and it may temporarily allow it to survive, but it is destructive overall.

There are also debates about compensatory mutations which try and "fix" the damage of the original mutations, but there are not any examples where this population mechanism has worked to create a new superior organism. The mutated strain always fails. So I see a lot of hot air and bluster, but little science to back up your claims.

Also, if you read what I wrote, I never claimed to be a biologist. A "scientist" is not always a biologist, unless you are creating a new definition. But I have worked extensively with genetic programming, and more importantly, I can think scientifically. My specific expertise is in digital signal processing and super computers. In genetic programming you are mimicking the theoretical basis for natural selection. I can speak with great confidence in this arena. Genetic programming does not provide any new capabilities or functionality. What it does provide is a search function. In this case, it allows you to do a faster search and sort for criteria within the existing population. This is empirically the same result as all these bacteria and antibiotic experiments. There is nothing new developed, only variations within the existing population.

In summary, are you claiming that only biologists can determine what is true? They are your Gods, and you must take from them the commandments? If they declare natural selection to be true, then you act in faith to follow their decree? You see, you are proving my point with your post. You follow a religious practice based on faith.
 
Very good point Saturn. At this point in our history, an absolute statement in either direction is religious in nature.

Only through modelisation and actual testing (ex. Higgs Boson LHC) will humans start peeking into what makes our reality possible. Proving the Higgs at 6 sigma is a spectacular achievement but making assumptions about anything beyond is only an attempt at modelisation. Human history is tainted with model makers with judgmental narrow views ;)

Question for you: Should humans one day inadvertently create a parallel universe (one of our artificial black holes) that eventually supports life, should we be considered gods ?
Good question! How do you know we are not already gods? :-)

I think your question already contains the answer. I do not believe humans can "inadvertently create a parallel universe". And since it has not happened and therefore can't be proven to be possible, then it is speculation. Perhaps I can give a better reply with my own speculation: if human beings were able to create life, not propagate or manipulate existing life, then I think you could argue they would be the gods to the life they created.
 
"God" is entirely a human concept and so nebulous a one that people have extreme difficulty explaining what they mean by it. Often people are completely unable to articulate what they mean by the idea, where the idea originated in their lives, or how they justify it as part of their world-view outside what what some other human being has written or said. This is also a good reflection of their thinking on the matter as well.

You have provided an excellent example of why God cannot possibly exist in your mention of domains below.



I have come to think it can be most clearly thought of by formulating the problem in the following manner:

A portion of a super set cannot be used to comprehend the super set.

If all I had were the 5 letters of the alphabet and told you I could describe the remaining 21 only using those 5 you would quickly come to realize that is an impossible task. Likewise, anyone making claims about knowledge of the super set of the immaterial world (or however you want to phrase it) and things in that world (gods, spirits, hoodats, etc.) from their limited subset perspective is logically, practically, and undeniably incorrect. God is by any means it is defined, is claimed to be a thing either dwelling in or actually comprising the super set of which human beings are logically incapable of comprehending. Therefore, God is an imaginary being, constructed whole cloth from the wishes and dreams of human beings and could not describe an actual being in this or any other reality.

We have a great deal of overlap in our understanding! If I understand/believe that there is a spiritual world, then I define God as the origin of that world, or the ground of its existence. I do not know God any better than that description. If you don't believe in a spiritual world, then you say "God is an imaginary being". But that is where we part company. God is imaginary for you, but you can't state he is imaginary for others. To do so you claim to know that I don't know about a spiritual world. That is an awkward sentence, but it is actually the intended statement. You may have evidence of many quacks and unreliable people who claim to know God (I certainly do!). I give you that, but there is a certainty in your statement that is not factually true. The existence of many unreliable people, and the absence of repeatable physical experiments to prove the existence of God does not make you an authority on whether anyone knows God. In fact, the way photons behave is a great example of "intelligence" at the particle level. When you delve into physics suddenly matter becomes energy, empty space and energy. Is that really a satisfying basis for a purely material world? I mean, you have these shaman who sit around and talk about energies, and thousands of years later you have these physicists sit around and talk about energies! I find it kind of amusing.
 
I don't understand Ancientsaturn - you agree the bible was authored by men? I mean everyone knows it was written by men but the question is whether there was any divine inspiration, i.e that God himself sort of dictated what he wanted people to hear? For that you have to believe that these guys were sitting somewhere someday and POOF! Ah! I hear you god, ok, ahah, yes, I've got it......anything else supreme being? All for today? Good, yes god. And on and on.

I am making light of it but you get the idea. Anyway, for me the question of whether to be a christian or not is based on the belief the bible is the dictated word of god and that Jesus was a supernatural-born son sent by god to save the souls/lives of mankind.

I see it as perfectly possible to really enjoy the content of the bible in terms of a guide for living and that it is possible to not believe the bible literally but still get plenty from it. Then there are those that take all or too much literally.

But even if the bible is full of good lessons etc there is still a big difference in living by those lessons and actually believing Jesus was special and rose from the dead etc? Either the weird, godly supernatural stuff actually happened or it did not. In one universe being a christian might be the sensible thing to be but I happen to think it was nothing supernatural whatsoever and fully authored by men. I would not follow anything written down by men claiming to be writing on behalf of god cos odds are they are writing what they want, not what god actually told them. It's horseshit with zero evidence for the supernatural. There is zero difference between believing the supernatural aspects of the bible or believing Marvel comics reflect reality.

Without trying to construct a philosophical argument, or a logical defense of my position, I'll give you my perspective. I see the Bible as inspired, but I don't see that because a preacher told me that was the case. I see it in the contents itself. I see thinking as the unifying force between the spiritual and physical worlds. A work like the Bible can only be explained in supernatural terms. Even if you are a materialist, the depth of complexity and information contained in that work is staggering. There is nothing like it, even in the most remote sense, that I have experienced in all my reading. I find the most complex scientific writings we have to be child's play in comparison.

More importantly, I experience focused rational thought to be a form of energy. If that force is developed, I believe it can be a direct vehicle for communications between embodied and disembodied entities. The Bible, in my view, was inspired and is true, and this was the mechanism. BTW, the term for this mechanism is "clairvoyance". Clairvoyance is simply an innate capacity all human beings have, through the development of cognition.

I know that will set me up for a whole other round of replies! :-) I do have limited time for posting, so you'll have to be patient with me as there may be extended delays before I am around. I'm still trying to catch up from 15 days ago...
 
I don't ever argue that the bible has important contents but they are only things and ideas that existed before it's creation anyway. There is nothing divine about the bible. Another book could be compiled with parables and lessons etc and this other book would inspire people etc I think.

But my point is, do you pray to Jesus as if he is indeed some conduit of god? That's the bit that annoys me the most. Jesus may have been a teacher and great speaker etc but so are other people and just because he claimed to be the son of god it doesn't make it true. It's a cult with a core belief based on, at best, a lie.

But none of that means that someone cannot extract some good from the bible. These are totally separate issues so for me, good book in some ways but certainly not divine. Jesus was not the first guy claiming divine creation/prophet status - there were plenty before him and plenty since and there will be again......when will people learn that all humans are just humans and that no-one can know what happens after death cos no-one returns to tell us all!
 
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